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To be amazed by the amount of people who think the state shouldnt help people?

(334 Posts)
malificent7 Sun 14-Apr-19 08:08:58

I mean with job creation, welfare, regulation of private employers etc.
I hear so many times...its not the state's job to do x, y and z.

So what is the point of gaving a state if it cannot produce conditions for people to thrive?

Of course some take the piss but the state shouldctry to peovide more jobs and less zero hour contracts, they should regulate how the private sector treats employees, they should moderate wages anf provide housing.

Of course, some take the piss but most have a genuine need and the state dosnt want to know.

Zoflorabore Sun 14-Apr-19 10:06:34

I also believe that many of us are in a vulnerable position to end up depending on state help. What is the saying? We're only 3 pay checks away from being homeless.

I don't have savings, lots of people don't.
Of course, lots of people do.
It's the ones that don't who are most vulnerable and closer to the welfare system
whether through redundancy, illness, escaping an abusive relationship etc and the pre-conceived idea that all claimants are chain smoking Jeremy Kyle fans with 8 kids is far from reality.
Illness, redundancy and life situations do not choose only the wealthy to target. Yes there are a small minority of people who don't use their intended money on their children and spend it on drink/drugs but the vast majority are bloody struggling to make ends meet and doing their absolute best to improve their lot.
I despair that so many people have such a
dim view of claimants when they could be one themselves through no fault of their own. They are always different thoughhmm

WitchesGlove Sun 14-Apr-19 10:07:50

Nobody is forced to have dc- the world is over-populated after all!

Why would you, if it will push you into poverty?

WitchesGlove Sun 14-Apr-19 10:09:13

Oliversmumsarmy- Couldn’t your DS do the GCSE online?

GoneForFood Sun 14-Apr-19 10:11:39

InspectorClouseauMNdivision my degree is in statistics!🙄

WitchesGlove people’s circumstances change all the time. I could afford my dc until I lost my job. I needed state help in the interim. I also didn’t foresee being widowed at such a young age. Maybe no one should have kids?

Oliversmumsarmy Sun 14-Apr-19 10:13:04


Maybe because you have always had to have a degree there hasn’t been the huge drop from being a relatively easy career to get into to needing to have a degree.

Maybe your nurses are paid accordingly.

Maybe your nurses aren’t being run off their feet doing a job for very little money.

Maybe your nurses don’t have a £30-50,000 debt that they have to pay back when they come out of university.

starzig Sun 14-Apr-19 10:13:29

I agree witchesglove. A lot of people are having kids before financially stable the say the can't get on the working ladder due to childcare. It is child cruelty to bring them into that.

lyralalala Sun 14-Apr-19 10:13:43

Benefit related fraud is a lot bigger than people want to believe and needs to be acted upon

1.5% of benefit expenditure is lost to fraud. It's much less than people want to believe.

Especially when you consider that 1% of benefit expenditure is underpaid due to error and lack of knowledge of entitlement.

There are much bigger, and expensive, frauds than benefit fraud that should be the bigger focus.

WitchesGlove Sun 14-Apr-19 10:16:23


The majority of people on tax credits are not widows or people who became sick/disabled.

Many TTC’d FULLY KNOWING they’d be reliant on tax credits!

There is life insurance that people can take out, or make savings before you TTC!

lyralalala Sun 14-Apr-19 10:16:29

Also despite people saying "obviously disabled and sick people should be well looked after" the fraud hysteria has blinded people to the point that benefits for disabled and sick people have been absolutely decimated. The irony is that adding more and more and more hoops for people to jump through is that the few fiddlers (less than one percent of disability benefit claims are fraudulent according to the DWP's own figures) are those most able to deal with them!

lyralalala Sun 14-Apr-19 10:19:42

One thing I think should have happened once the accidental impact of the way tax credits were implemented was realised was state run nurseries. The cost of childcare boomed because of tax credits (which were actually a really good idea in their original form - they were originally only meant to last a year or so to bridge the gap between benefits and work).

If there had been state run nurseries opened it would have created jobs, the costs could have been kept lower (which would also have kept other nursery costs lower) and therefore the monies paid out in tax credit childcare element would have gone back into the pot.

Oliversmumsarmy Sun 14-Apr-19 10:23:01

WitchesGlove ds only learned to read properly at age 12, he can talk about politics and a wide range of subjects. He isn’t uneducated. He was HE (inter high for a couple of years) and studied lots of different subjects that interested him. But when it comes to writing anything it is illegible (diagnosed with dysgraphia), if there is any comprehension question that asks you to read between the lines then he is stumped and don’t ask him to write a story, his mind goes blank.

Both myself and dp can’t help because we have no idea how to teach him as we are both in the same boat.

InspectorClouseauMNdivision Sun 14-Apr-19 10:23:03

@Oliversmumsarmy it wasn't always requirement. They are not well paid. But they should be! Here and there. It's bad for nurses everywhere.

You also should not look at uni loan repayments as a standard debt though. That country has uni for free, but taxes and health insurance (mandatory payment from wages) and social insurance is much higher than here. So it's same shit, different arsehole.

Dimsumlosesum Sun 14-Apr-19 10:23:16

I believe that too many peopletorieslack understanding of the poverty trap, the long term effects of adverse childhood experiences (ACEs) and inter-generational trauma

A sweeping generalisation. The Tory voters I know voted Tory originally because the leadership of Labour was horrific. Not because they didn't believe in welfare. But maybe you just know some shit people.

Shutuptodd Sun 14-Apr-19 10:36:19

I think one of the biggest problems is lots of jobs mine included dont pay enough to actually live as the government tops up wages with tax credits. I wasnt in this position with my children when I had them but now my ex has left I couldn't even afford my basic bills on my current wage. It is above nmw and I live in a housing association property and I can only cover the rent and council tax before there is nothing left.

I dont know the answer to this problem I know I will get someone telling me to get a better job(Which I'm training for) but someone has to do the jobs that aren't paid well.

GoneForFood Sun 14-Apr-19 10:41:08

Many TTC’d FULLY KNOWING they’d be reliant on tax credits!

And some people are never going to earn enough to not have to rely on them, due to the way companies are allowed to pay not a penny more than NMW knowing that the tax credit/universal credit system will pick up the slack. So should only the rich have children?

mirime Sun 14-Apr-19 10:43:49

People in the UK not having children until they could afford it would potentially be disastrous though. Our birth rate is already below replacement level and we're looking at huge problems with pensions and social and health care for our ageing population. Allowing more immigration is clearly an unpopular option. If only the well off had children the birth rate would plummet!

DarkAtEndOfTunnel Sun 14-Apr-19 10:44:16

Interesting thread. You have to start by considering what a state is and what it is for. At root it is a group of people who have banded together for mutual support and cooperation to achieve ends that each individual could not achieve alone. That's it, and nothing more.

The problem comes when states grow into huge entities that are no longer responsible or responsive to its members. Same goes for any form of organisation for that matter. The principle of specialised economies - people having very different jobs and trading products and skills - easily becomes a class system or caste system in which people start thinking that their contribution is more worthwhile than others just because. Prestige and status, and defending it from within society, becomes more important than anything else. Then things start to break down because actually it isn't, and people who work just as hard or worse for lower reward and who have no real opportunities to better themselves from their work start to get angry. Not as articulately, perhaps, but with eminent justifications. Eventually the systems start to tear themselves apart. Chuck in environmental overload because separated elites are no longer listening to warning signals, and you have a society in danger of collapse. These is the working conditions that drive the cyclical theory of history imo. That's the situation we're seeing now, also imho. We've already had the obligatory complaints about poor nurses on benefits. It hasn't happened overnight, what about the poor careworkers doing very similar and equally difficult jobs to nurses but paid one hell of a lot less who have been struggling and vilified? Same goes for other middle class professions.

KC225 Sun 14-Apr-19 10:46:14

State help should be a safety net not a hammock. I always agreed to this but there has been such a massive shift in lifestyles. Rents in most parts of the UK are nuts, getting on the housing with out help is a tough one. The lack social housing stock and the increase in the UK population. Low paid, contract hours and the erosion of employment rights have had a massive impact. For certain groups of people, I think things are worse now than 40/50 years ago.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel Sun 14-Apr-19 10:51:04

These are, not these is blush. That was long. Short version, is YADNBU op. Demographics are the problem. We have absolutely unprecedented population levels, unprecedented within human history and no understanding, knowledge of how to organise them. More importantly, no real wish to do so - it's too complicated.

SelkieRinnNaMara Sun 14-Apr-19 10:51:14

I think a secure job is a privilege and a lot of people who pay taxes forget this. They forget that being free from responsibility and being able to work for a minimum wage is freedom and privilege.

I have a secure job now and pay taxes blah blah blah but i couldnt work for a long time as a single mother i couldnt afford to let go of the security blanket and work for minimum wage and need to be thre for my kids too. It amazes me how many people dont understand this.

RosaWaiting Sun 14-Apr-19 10:51:46

there's a lot of scope for how you think the state should be

I agree they should moderate wages, as you say in your PP

I don't believe they should "create" jobs

I do believe they should intervene in the housing market

I tend to see their role as being about basics really. I believe they are failing in those basics, but I have a feeling your definition of basics would be a lot different than mine!

Alsohuman Sun 14-Apr-19 10:54:22

You can’t get a state pension without paying NIC, you have to have a minimum of 35 years contribution for a full pension. One of the reasons people are so resentful of state provision is because they’re not only woefully ignorant/misinformed, but confidently assert that nonsense as fact.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel Sun 14-Apr-19 10:54:31

But if the state does not create jobs, how are its people supposed to live nowadays in an economy that can produce plenty using machines without human intervention? Why should people support such a system?

Answers on a postcard please!

RosaWaiting Sun 14-Apr-19 11:00:51

Dark we are a very, very long way from all the job that can be automated, being automated.

look at the situation as it is now. Do you want the government to "create" more jobs? What does that mean?

I once had 4 people come to a meeting from a government office. I needed to talk to 1 person and I'd have preferred to talk to them on the phone actually. I realised when they arrived that they had naff all to do and they pushed for a meeting as a way of getting a change of scene.

I also temped in a govt office - slightly outing this actually! - but left the temp job because it was literally a non job. My boss was on 80k, had two managers on 50k, and they sat around dreaming up things to do. Also, leftover budget was spent on things like concert tickets.

Now, I would probably stay in the job, but at the time I was so shocked by the waste of money, I didn't want to be part of it.

ChocChocButtons Sun 14-Apr-19 11:02:48

It’s typical socialist left wing attitudes, and why we need a conservative government.

I’m all for helping people in need. But I’m not paying tax etc for people to live a life of bloody Riley.

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