Radical feminism/ trans community(128 Posts)
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AIBU to ask someone to explain feminist views on trans people please? I would really appreciate a variety of stances, preferably in a non-confrontational thread as I don't feel I have a proper understanding of it all and would like to. Thank you
You may find answers over on the Feminism Chat board.
Yes, YABU - as you particularly posted on AIBU.
There is a huge quantity of very clear, easy to understand information over on feminist chat. It is very balanced and well informed.
There are occasional threads started by disingenuous/questionable posters, but they are generally spotted and deleted pretty fast.
I am sure you will find all the information you need.
As Feminists are mostly women and they have minds of their own, I really don't think you'll get a definitive answer.
My number one pasted link on here: Break it down for me? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me
Plenty to get stuck into there OP!
Thanks DollyPartonsBeard, I'll pop over and have a look.
FamilyOfAliens...in all honesty, while I feel like I am fairly clued up, I've sort of stuck my head in the sand about the way some feminists feel about trans people . I think my instinct, as a liberal snowflake Is to talk about trans rights/ supporting trans community etc... but I'm aware that there is a whole lot of debate that I am almost wilfully ignoring, and I shouldn't be!
Thanks everyone for your help! Sorry for posting here...feel free to ignore me now while I go and get dug in to the links!
Vegpatch I would suggest you read and lurk on the feminist boards as someone has suggested.
Definitely didn't mean to imply that all feminists, or all women feel the same way.
I've sort of stuck my head in the sand about the way some feminists feel about trans people
Can you expand on what you mean by this?
I thought you came here to find out more, but this comment implies you’ve already made your mind up.
I don't feel anything about trans people.
I feel passionate about protecting women and girls.
I feel strongly about our loss of rights, privacy and dignity.
I feel angry that lesbians are being coerced in to accepting males in their dating pool.
I feel disgusted that the word woman is reduced to a feeling and dress code.
I feel powerless to protect gender non conforming children and their future.
I think that’s a pretty comprehensive summary
This might interest you. Written by a liberal snowflake
Here's the view of a lesbian who insisted she was a boy when she was younger.
If you were completely genuine you'd know how to research this. But I'll bite and say I completely agree with what fuzzy says.
“I've sort of stuck my head in the sand about the way some feminists feel about trans people”
You have the wrong end of the stick here. Feminists don’t feel a particular way about trans people. The overwhelming majority of trans people just get on with their lives, protected by existing laws, are nice or nasty just like any other sort of people. I love one of the trans people I know, quite like another and actively dislike the 3rd. It’s not transness that feminists have a problem with, it’s anyone, regardless of sex, sexuality or gender expression who want to ride rough shod over the rights and freedoms that women have collectively fought for for generations. Who wants to curtail women’s bodily autonomy, freedom of expression and equality within society and within the law.
I'm honestly completely genuine, definitely not looking for an argument...just not hugely internet/ Mumsnet savvy, or apparently very good at explaining what I mean clearly. I just want to understand the issues better, exactly forvtge reason that I don't have enough knowledge/ information to have any meaningful stance...but now I have lots of helpful pointers and will do my research. Thank you (and apologies for any offence/ annoyance caused to anyone).
I don’t have a view on trans people other than, like everyone else, they should not suffer discrimination and be able to live their lives in peace.
I do have some rather strong opinions on TRAs.
That makes absolute sense BertrandRussell, thank you.
As you continue your research, be mindful of the fact that feminists do not have a problem with trans people. They have a problem with the behaviour of some trans people and their allies. Also keep in the back of your mind the question of why nobody seems to be expecting men to change in any way to accommodate trans men.
In a nutshell there's a few main issues
A) self ID - let's anyone say they are a woman so not just 'real' trans people - huge threat to women's safety as can, has and will be used by criminals to access vulnerable women
B). Transgender sports people participating as women - yet with nearly all of the physical advantages of a male body - takes that space from a woman. As this also happens at college level it discourages a whole generation of girls from taking part as what's the point of the transgender girl (with boys muscles etc) is always going to win.
C). Experimenting on children with puberty blockers and forcing a medical pathway. Not allowing any exploration of other ideas for gender confused kids. Massively reinforces gender stereotypes which are damaging to boys and girls. See also social contagion and online grooming.
D.). The 'thought police' as more and more very vocal transgender activists are calling the police for people's' comments regarding 'misgendering' or stating biological facts.
Oh I give up - was trying to summarise (mainly to test my own understanding/ knowledge) but it's just too huge!!
My final point is
E) I, as a feminist, don't have any issues with individual transgender people. They have an absolute right to live their life how they want and I completely agree that the struggles they face in life are horrible, unfair and we should do what we can to address genuine transphobia.
I have issues with extreme activists and I have issues with the ideologies and how that directly negatively affects women and their rights.
You describe yourself as not internet savvy, and yet somehow managed to stumble upon one of the few forums that attract the ire of transactivists because we’re not afraid to state biological truths?
What are the chances?
Thank you FushionChefGeoff...That feels like a really great starting point for me To gain some understanding. I have an 11 year old dd who is passionate about feminism and deserves decent, well informed and nuanced answers when she asks me about these things
What's made you ask exactly?
If you can explain that you'll probably get less suspicion.
The feminist discussions I've seen about trans issues have been generally filled with bile and rage. I've never seen a well informed debate there. I've also never understood the lack of empathy displayed towards trans people. I think it becomes an issue when people strong identify as "feminist" or any other political or social label. It becomes very easy to see people not part of that group as "other" and not apply any normal human empathy towards them.
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