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Anon. members - Forums open to court action??

(758 Posts)
justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 13:47:25

Was quite shocked to see this. Will this be a test case? Mumsnet is such a tame well run site compared to the comments I see in the online press. Is the writing on the wall for free (cough) speech or is it a culling of trolling. Personally I think that something needs to be done, some folk have no filter or are just plain nasty.

news.yahoo.com/transgender-activist-wins-court-ruling-forcing-parenting-website-reveal-identity-alleged-online-abuser-121317596.html

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:03:17

Ah well guess no-one else is worried about the boom being lowered.

Skyzalimit Wed 10-Apr-19 20:04:44

It's not tame though- it's home to a lot of prejudice, directed specifically at transgender people

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:07:25

My OH is shocked by this. The Daily Mail and other publications are going to be tied up in moderating comments that up till now they have let slip through. Celebrities anyone in the public eye with money will now have recourse. If this is in fact a test case.

Tiscold Wed 10-Apr-19 20:07:30

Also the comments posted are criminal and have been so extreme for a judge to say that what was said constitutes a crime. So they're not cracking down on free speech, they're cracking down on crime.

If someone knew something about a crime that happened against me i would want them to come forward, and mumsnet knows those details so should come forward

sackrifice Wed 10-Apr-19 20:10:46

Also the comments posted are criminal and have been so extreme for a judge to say that what was said constitutes a crime. So they're not cracking down on free speech, they're cracking down on crime.

The 'crime' of what exactly?

If criminals can hide their identity by changing name [and gender] and nobody must ever speak of it, even though they themselves refer to it, where does that leave the DBS system?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 20:11:54

Or maybe someone posted in the anticipation/hope of someone bringing action against the site? If I wanted to shut a site up of try to worry posters that’s what I’d do. Or her a friend to do it.

And one more time for the people at the back - being pro women is not transphobia. But threatening women who disagree with you or point out biology, and saying they should die in a grease fire (not even sure what that is) is just being a horrible, nasty misogynist. But hey, that’s ok these days isn’t it?

sackrifice Wed 10-Apr-19 20:12:10

it's home to a lot of prejudice, directed specifically at transgender people

It is 'prejudiced' to want females to retain their 'rights' now is it?

RUOKHUN Wed 10-Apr-19 20:15:56

Good. Some of the stuff said here is, quite frankly, vile. And yes it is transphobic and a hate crime no matter what you all argue. That’s the law.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:16:04

Take hate speech which is considered a crime, a lot of comments posted by someone calling themselves joebloggs123 across the internet say means that they will be uncovered. Wasn`t there a case a few years ago where a woman on twitter was unmasked and killed herself because her family, friends, neighbours had found out.

With the threats on politicians in the UK I think the wind may be a changing.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking Wed 10-Apr-19 20:16:35

We had this this morning.

Rightly so the lady in question is able to challenge trolls

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 20:17:04

Define ‘hate crime’ and ‘crime’ please.

Skyzalimit Wed 10-Apr-19 20:17:51

No, but I have personally received many very abusive responses when I have advocated for an empathic and supportive approach towards trans people. Many were reported as hate speech and subsequently removed.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 20:20:14

But what constitutes hate speech? Insults, disagreements, threats?

MorningsEleven Wed 10-Apr-19 20:21:22

it's home to a lot of prejudice, directed specifically at transgender people

And it needs called out. It needs challenged and the prejudice needs to stop.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:21:43

They may have been removed but a screen grab taken at the time means comments made in the past can still be used. How often do you see folk remove twitter comments that the media have grabbed so they are still out there.

Batfurger Wed 10-Apr-19 20:23:27

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

S1naidSucks Wed 10-Apr-19 20:24:06

Blimey, OP, it looks like there’s been a few ‘characters’ just lurking in the wings to attack as soon as this issue was raised. Apparently it’s transphobic to refuse to believe people can change sex and to centre actual women. 🤷‍♀️

Spoddy Wed 10-Apr-19 20:24:35

Quite astonishing when you can read utterly vile comments directed at women across various social media platforms but as soon as its a TW involved it's a hate crime.

Foxyscarf Wed 10-Apr-19 20:24:58

Totally. The transphobia on here is rife. Despite the supposed crackdown.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:26:23

Consider this cybercrime.

The UAE's cybercrime laws apply extraterritorially and retroactively. The Cybercrime laws prohibit sharing charities online such as Amnesty international, they prohibit fundraising, sharing photos taken in public, for example that includes a vehicle or other people.

'The laws further forbid anything 'defamatory' against the UAE and this can even include the reporting of a news article and further prohibit the use of a VPN.'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47862596

S1naidSucks Wed 10-Apr-19 20:26:34

I have advocated for an empathic and supportive approach towards trans people.

Translation. Learn to be ‘nice’ women, move over and centre transwomen.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:27:47

Can we step away from this particular case I was using it as an example I have posted another above. It is the bigger picture I am more interested in.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 20:28:58

I say there’s hate on here
Me too!
I agree
Oh yes all over the place
Si si
Mai oui
Absolutely
You’re all right it’s a cesspit. I’m off to Twitter to harass some women and tell them to die in a grease fire.
Wait for me!
Oh me too!

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:32:46

Is this not a forum for intelligent serious conversation?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 20:33:57

It can be. Or light relief. Or sometimes threads are just the honey for the wasps.

titchy Wed 10-Apr-19 20:34:33

I don't think you can reasonably use the UAE's laws as an example... they're not exactly similar to the U.K.

The case in the OP isn't exactly ground breaking. The comments posted haven't been found to be criminal. In fact they're the inconvenient truth.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 20:42:00

Titchy some form of law like this could be adapted to the UK. Friends in Thailand and China are very careful what they say.

I have seen folk sharing nasty political stuff of all sorts on FB which reading this case could get them into trouble if they ever visited the UAE because of extraterrestial and retrospective law.

justarandomtricycle Wed 10-Apr-19 20:54:56

"They're not cracking down on free speech, they're cracking down on [speech they have made a] crime"

Amazing logic there.

We're all fucked. We need a war or something.

SlipperyLizard Wed 10-Apr-19 20:55:01

My understanding is that the “lawyer” in question wishes to sue (for defamation) someone who posted on mumsnet (or “nuttersnet” as they so charmingly refer to this site). In order to do so, they need to know who that person is.

Quite rightly, MNHQ won’t release any details unless ordered to do so by a court. The lawyer has got a court order requiring MNHQ to disclose the details held about the poster.

That’s all. This isn’t some important ruling, it is a court order to disclose information. It isn’t a test case. The lawyer has not “won” - MMHQ didn’t contest the application, presumably because (as is their stated policy) the poster did not require them to.

Why didn’t the poster want them to contest the application? Because they had given false details on registration, so have not much to fear from them being disclosed.

Even if the poster had used genuine details, the lawyer would still need to bring a legal claim for defamation - only if they won that could they genuinely claim a victory.

Oh, and on the wider point - comparing laws in the UK to countries that don’t respect human rights is fanciful.

RedDogsBeg Wed 10-Apr-19 21:03:31

There is no evidence that the person whose details were requested from MN has committed any crime.

So love the presumption of innocence shown by some on here.

It is also interesting, OP, how details can be sought from MN regarding this, but, nothing can be done except a collective wringing of hands about all the truly hideous and outright criminal content across Social Media generally.

The case you refer to in your post related to someone who was regularly putting very detrimental comments on Social Media platforms about the McCanns, the person was identified (not sure how) and doorstepped by a Sky News reporter live on TV. A couple of days later the person committed suicide.

sackrifice Wed 10-Apr-19 21:14:40

* Some of the stuff said here is, quite frankly, vile. And yes it is transphobic and a hate crime no matter what you all argue*

Can you link to some of this 'stuff'. Ta.

sackrifice Wed 10-Apr-19 21:16:30

There is no evidence that the person whose details were requested from MN has committed any crime

I know right, linking to stuff available in public documents such as criminal proceedings is not a crime. Yet.

Whynham Wed 10-Apr-19 21:18:53

Mumsnet can only provide the name, address and DOB if you've provided it to them.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 21:19:30

Reddog. Not wringing my hands here.

Social media in the States exploded with Trump getting in, this has spread like a plague into many other areas of discontent both there and in the UK. Politicians are getting death threats over brexit. That is beyond my ken. I wonder what German, French social media is like these days?

If social media sites, the press, forums, cannot regulate themselves will it be taken out of their hands?

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 21:20:43

sackrifice, try the feminism boards.

MorningsEleven Wed 10-Apr-19 21:22:06

@MorningsEleven you've missed some words in your post. English not your first language?

How fucking rude? I'm Scottish, it's a fairly common way of speaking and writing. I'll forgive your ignorance.

Batfurger Wed 10-Apr-19 21:32:33

@MorningsEleven meh, no it's not, it's idle. I'll forgive your poor syntax, you must be distracted.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 21:43:04

Batfurger if you have quite finished, can we get back to the topic.

BigChocFrenzy Wed 10-Apr-19 22:21:03

TRAs have the money to bring nuisance cases, part of their organised intimidation to shut down women
So we would be wise never to give real name / contact details when joining a social media site

Best to take this precaution on SM anway, as TRA are not the only danger, legally & physically, that women face online

re MN being a "hotbed of transphobia":
To most TRAs, it is a hate crime and transphobic to say that transwomen are men
That seems why they get so angry that MNHQ allow such statements to stand -

However, it is a biological fact that people cannot change sex, cannot change their chromosones
and it is not against the law to say this

It would be very strange if a parenting site banned factually correct posts about male and female biology

sackrifice Wed 10-Apr-19 22:24:18

sackrifice, try the feminism boards

I am on there regularly, and rest assured actual transphobia is deleted swifty. I was hoping that the poster who stated that vile stuff was being posted to link to it, to back up their assertions. Unless it is bullshit of course.

justasking111 Wed 10-Apr-19 22:34:28

Bigchoc, deep pockets are available to the rich and famous as well as political groups. Recently the Royal Family have endured some pretty vile stuff. I wonder if they will take action against the worst offenders. Sportsmen and women also seem to be taken as fair game by a certain type of sports fan.

Meandwinealone Wed 10-Apr-19 22:55:46

What did this person actually say? And how is it criminal to deadname someone?
I mean I am all for everyone being equal and happy and chilled. But I do think this is a little bit mad.

keepforgettingmyusername Wed 10-Apr-19 23:06:35

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NuclearReactor Wed 10-Apr-19 23:08:48

Don't worry users!!! If someone decides to take you to court for saying something which they deem as 'hate crime' online just do what my vile abusive ex partner did when he sent me hundreds of sick, threatening messages. Just say "I didn't do it, someone must have got onto my account" and you'll be let off!

Unless of course the police treat transwomen more favourably than women?

RedDogsBeg Wed 10-Apr-19 23:14:02

justasking I wasn't referring to you personally when I said 'collective hand wringing' I was referring to the so-called powers that be - politicians, the police and legal system, social media owners and shareholders, etc., etc., who when pulled up about blatantly criminal content just whinge and cry "Oh it's so terrible but we just can't do anything."

LaurieFairyCake Wed 10-Apr-19 23:18:57

Can I just check that the Hayden person is biologically male?

titchy Wed 10-Apr-19 23:21:55

Yes Laurie, male with a GRC apparently.

justarandomtricycle Wed 10-Apr-19 23:22:40

@NuclearReactor

We've gone right past a society where women's rights and interests can be discussed freely and openly, and the wrongs of the past perhaps addressed, to one where even asking questions like your last sentence approach criminal speech. Do not pass go, do not collect £200.

It's a joke, and honestly the people who will applaud this sort of thing as if it's a good thing are selling our rights and freedoms a bit bloody cheaply. It's stupid, it's damaging, it's vandalistic.

GeordieGenes Wed 10-Apr-19 23:24:30

I haven't seen any transphobia on MN. Could someone point out a specific example and link to it please? I will help you report it and get it deleted. smile

loobielousplaits Wed 10-Apr-19 23:49:37

forcing parenting website to reveal identity of her alleged online abuser

Absolutely in favour of this and good on the judge - whatever your opinion on the trans debate I think it's absolutely right that trolls/abusive posters/people who discriminate for sexuality/gender/whatever are made to face the music and not able to hide behind an online 'identity'.

Maybe this will be a warning to the GF's who take the piss??

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 23:59:48

And abusers who post rape ‘cartoons’, threats, lies, insults and... oh hang on, that was only to a woman so... as you were...

loobielousplaits Thu 11-Apr-19 00:10:11

*LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Wed 10-Apr-19 23:59:48
And abusers who post rape ‘cartoons’, threats, lies, insults and... oh hang on, that was only to a woman so... as you were...*

Eh? WTF are you going on about? Of course that is never OK - What also isn't OK is a person who can make up a username and post vile accusations against someone without any come back - This is about making those who think it's ok to anonymously post accusations about whoever under the cloak of anonymity - and yes the ruling should make it accountable.

JaneJeffer Thu 11-Apr-19 00:10:12

I'm surprised the British justice system is wasting time on this nonsense.

loobielousplaits Thu 11-Apr-19 00:18:23

*JaneJeffer Thu 11-Apr-19 00:10:12
I'm surprised the British justice system is wasting time on this nonsense.*

I'm not - this ruins people's lives and it's high time that those who think they can post abusive/untrue comments against someone are brought to justice.

MetroToy Thu 11-Apr-19 00:30:13

What also isn't OK is a person who can make up a username and post vile accusations against someone without any come back

Or a person allegedly because we know you cant changing sex after doing something vile and it being 'transphobic' to "dead name" them.

It's all gotten fucking ridiculous. You are born male or female. Dress how you want, act how you like, but don't think we can dismiss biology on a whim.

MetroToy Thu 11-Apr-19 00:33:32

And @OP can we stop with silly comments like 'I thought this was a place for intelligent conversation' hmm

Its a place to chat, no IQ checking goes on here so do one with that ridiculous put-down.

Meandwinealone Thu 11-Apr-19 01:06:46

I’m literally speechless. What an epic cluster fuck
I hope the person gave a false name. Like so many people seem to do.

JaneJeffer Thu 11-Apr-19 01:11:42

I'm not - this ruins people's lives and it's high time that those who think they can post abusive/untrue comments against someone are brought to justice.
Well as their comments were deleted I'll have to take your word for it that it ruined Hayden's life.

GeordieGenes Thu 11-Apr-19 18:23:39

Update: Mumsnet have complied with the order. However, they said they would have fought it if the poster had asked them to, which the poster didn't.

sackrifice Thu 11-Apr-19 18:23:53

I’m literally speechless. What an epic cluster fuck. I hope the person gave a false name. Like so many people seem to do.

Many many people seem to be changing their names for a range of reasons these days...and don't want people bringing up their old names whilst getting annoyed that other people are using fake names.

So weird.

AuntieCJ Thu 11-Apr-19 18:44:17

Just place marking ready for the links to all the transphobic "stuff". Nothing posted yet?

justasking111 Fri 12-Apr-19 12:51:19

Hey guys I am psychic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6911749/Proposed-internet-regulations-censor-speech-millions-experts-warn.html

FenellaVelour Fri 12-Apr-19 12:57:34

There are transphobic comments on this very thread.

justasking111 Fri 12-Apr-19 12:59:42

Fenella I just used this case as my first example, I have used another example. As the OP I am interested in censorship generally not particularly. I think you need the feminist board to object to.

eurochick Fri 12-Apr-19 13:13:01

There is no finding of a crime here.

The case brought by the lawyer is civil not criminal.

The merits have not yet been considered - this is no landmark judgment.

An order has been obtained to require MNHQ to disclose registration information about one user. As I understand it the application was unopposed. An unopposed application will almost always be granted.

There is really nothing to see here.

NoCauseRebel Fri 12-Apr-19 13:13:42

Must these threads always descend into an anti trans debate <yawn> and to the posters saying they have never read any transphobic messages on here that is presumably because they are themselves transphobic.

But that aside, the fact that people think they can log into any website under a username and post unfounded and often defamatory allegations about a named individual is something which does need addressing. The sooner that people realise the internet is not anonymous the better. MN have already posted in their t’s and C’s that they are able (and willing) to pass details to authorities in the event of safeguarding concerns, so anyone thinking that signing up with an assumed username and made up rl name is wrong if they believe that is untraceable. HQ also have your IP address etc, and indeed did apparently alert the authorities to someone’s posts recently, something which some disagreed with at the time (me included) but which many others applauded.

In fact this kind of case removes all liability from the website and gives it to the user instead. Anyone remember the Gina Ford case? She took legal action against MN itself due to posts about her on here,and I believe that the subject was no longer actually able to be discussed at the time or she was not allowed to be named. Similarly with the McCanns, an awful lot is posted about them and MN usually take the posts down because of the liability towards them but actually the user making the comments is the one responsible for making them, even if the site removes them from public view.

So there are many situations which could be affected by this. It’s not just about beating down the rights of women as the hysterical feminists would have us believe, it goes a lot further than that.

EdithWeston Fri 12-Apr-19 13:14:03

MN has of course 'been here, done that'

If someone objects to user-generated content, the law already provides for them to challenge it, by getting in touch with the hosting platform and asking for them to provide the identity of the poster or to delete the material, or become liable themselves as well if it all ends up in court.

MN has in the past chosen not to expose itself (probably because it cannot verify posters' identity in nearly all cases) and so then contacts the poster, explains the issue and asks they wish to withdraw the post or have what identity info MN holds passed to the complainant (not sure if it needs to be verified at this stage, the purpose is so action can be taken against the poster not the site). If the poster does not respond or MN cannot adequately identify the user, then MNHQ will delete the post.

Is there really a significant change now? (Other than people seizing on something already extant and harnessing it to a different agenda as if it were new and linked)

justasking111 Fri 12-Apr-19 13:17:13

8So there are many situations which could be affected by this. It’s not just about beating down the rights of women as the hysterical feminists would have us believe, it goes a lot further than that.* Thank you Nocauserebel. This is what I have been trying to get across from the beginning. It does go a lot further than that.

Looking across the pond Homeland Security have powers they were given years ago. Some folk feel those powers are being abused, some are grateful that they are on the ball.

EdithWeston Fri 12-Apr-19 13:21:20

The powers have existed in England for at least 4 years

GabrielleNelson Fri 12-Apr-19 13:22:52

Do please point them out, Fenella, and of course report them too so that Mumsnet can delete them.

I find this sort of discussion very frustrating. Several posters appear saying that Mumsnet is full of transphobia. They don't give examples. They just keep repeating that allegation, and that leads others to accept it as true, when if they actually saw what was supposedly so vile they'd be amazed.

justasking111 Fri 12-Apr-19 13:30:20

Interesting Edith. "The Online Harms White Paper was issued on Monday by the UK government"

CallMeWoman Fri 12-Apr-19 13:46:15

Until I see places like kiwi farms - which are full of horrid transphobic comments - being targeted like Mumsnet currently is, I will remain skeptical over the claims that this site is the only corner of the internet that transpeople need "protection" from.

JaneJeffer Fri 12-Apr-19 14:30:43

There are transphobic comments on this very thread.
Where are they?

Aeroflotgirl Fri 12-Apr-19 14:36:09

I didn't know it was transphobic to state facts!

ScreamScreamIceCream Fri 12-Apr-19 15:16:09

HQ also have your IP address

I don't have a fixed IP like many in the UK. I've actually been blocked by other forums thinking I do when I've never logged on to them.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Fri 12-Apr-19 15:23:02

Speaking of court type things... I have just read on Caro's twitter that 'someone' has contacted her to say that they are sorry (don't call the police) and won't do it again (please don't call the police), was not really responsible because of their fragile mental health (god, no please don't call the police) and would urge others to stop the harassment (NO POLICE! PLEEEESE).

I'm sure it was a heartfelt apology motivated by genuine remorse, not fear of having their details splashed across the front page of the Daily Mail and having a visit from a real police person (and possible criminal record).

TopBitchoftheWitches Fri 12-Apr-19 15:26:26

So called 'hate' speech hmm does not include hateful comments towards biological women as far as I know. I can't think why that might be.

Meandwinealone Fri 12-Apr-19 15:37:13

Can someone show me the transphobic posts on this thread

aprarl Fri 12-Apr-19 15:41:34

They never ever say what transphobia is. They just say it's there and if you can't see it you're transphobic.

Which makes me think they're 100% full of shit and know it grin

Prawnofthepatriarchy Fri 12-Apr-19 15:45:10

Tiscold and others seem to think a crime has definitely been committed and that there has been hate speech:

Also the comments posted are criminal and have been so extreme for a judge to say that what was said constitutes a crime. So they're not cracking down on free speech, they're cracking down on crime.

That's not what's happened. For a start, the potential court case under discussion has nothing to do with the police, "hate speech" or transphobia.

Stephanie Hayden claims a MN user left defamatory comments about her personally. She told the court she needs the user’s personal information in order to pursue private legal action against them for defamation of character.

Stephanie has been granted that information. MNHQ didn't oppose the request, which indicates that the user didn't oppose it either.

However, having received the information, Stephanie Hayden still has to bring a successful case for defamation of character against the user. And there is room for doubt as to whether such an action would be successful.

SmileEachDay Fri 12-Apr-19 15:48:27

There are transphobic comments on this very thread

Where?!

titchy Fri 12-Apr-19 15:49:36

to the posters saying they have never read any transphobic messages on here that is presumably because they are themselves transphobic.

It's not because they're transphobic at all; it's because when asked to cite specific transphobic comments those that claim MN is a hotbed of transphobia are unable to do so.

MN is by and large an evidence based forum. If you're going to claim MN is transphobic the show us the evidence that there are transphobic comments. Shit or get off the pot in other words.

aprarl Fri 12-Apr-19 15:50:21

Pretty sure the poster just mentioned Stephanie's former name didn't they?

Fun fact: these days, if you're a man who commits a horrible crime, you can just change your name and sex and then sue everyone who ever says that was you and say "deadnaming".

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Fri 12-Apr-19 15:51:08

I'm not sure 'because I say so' is admissible in court.

Meandwinealone Fri 12-Apr-19 15:57:23

So many morons so little time.

werideatdawn Fri 12-Apr-19 15:57:45

I genuinely dont understand what constitutes transphobic..
So if i say "You cannot change your biology however, if you wish to be addressed with female pronouns and present yourself as a female, I will respect that" am I transphobic? And if so, how?

SmileEachDay Fri 12-Apr-19 15:58:43

Pretty sure the poster just mentioned Stephanie's former name didn't they?

That and mention of alleged former activities that may or may not have resulted in a now non existent criminal record.

TheFatberg Fri 12-Apr-19 16:04:57

Uh oh, the anti trans Borg are in full force. You can identify them by phrases such as:

"If you see any transphobia, report it and MNHQ will deal with it" (most trans threads are like Swiss cheese precisely for that reason so it's impossible to pull up a deleted post)

"But what is a woman?"

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Fri 12-Apr-19 16:06:08

Which is all over the twittersphere. Some supplied by the person and their friend themselves. All very odd.

SmileEachDay Fri 12-Apr-19 16:08:01

“The anti trans Borg” 😂😂😂😂😂

Meandwinealone Fri 12-Apr-19 16:11:28

I think Stephanie has had a lot of Botox.

sackrifice Fri 12-Apr-19 17:00:51

"But what is a woman?"

Which weirdly the answer of 'an adult human female' is too 'transphobic' to let stand.

CrimpMyArse Fri 12-Apr-19 17:09:12

Lol at fatberg.

The faux innocence and wilful blindness to transphobia is quite something.

Philosophical question:

If a transphobic post (or, as is happening more often now in the FWR board) a transphobic thread, is deleted, does it exist at all?

I think it does, in the minds of those who read it prior to its deletion, and particularly in the minds of those who posted in agreement or support.

Earlier this week there was a not especially unusual rash of whole-thread deletions for transphobic content in FWR.

Did the hundreds of posters who joined in on those threads and felt supported, encouraged and empowered in their views continue to feel those things after the deletion?

Probably, given the standard response of “well everything is transphobic now” the fact of being deleted doesn’t take away from the solidarity boost of hanging out with like minded people.

Incidentally, there is a lot of content on FWR that refers to now deleted things that were once posted online or said by other people. Often with screenshots. Often still being raised and re-posted months or years after the original posting has been deleted or the remark apologised for.

I think deleted transphobia is still transphobia, just as deleted misogyny is still misogyny. It doesn’t go away or not exist or not have been harmful or continue to be harmful just because it’s been deleted.

sackrifice Fri 12-Apr-19 17:17:21

The faux innocence and wilful blindness to transphobia is quite something

What is transphobia in the first place?

If you are saying that Karen White is a woman, and that saying he is a man is transphobic, then I am guilty as charged.

If saying that the rapist Karen White is a man is not transphobic, then is saying SH the flying lawyer is a man, is that transphobic? Or not?

I mean, who gets to define who is and isn't allowed to say whether someone is or isn't a man or a woman?

As there is no such thing as a sex changes, and never has been, then what exactly is transphobia at all?

If you cannot define transphobia, you cannot claim it. So if you are claiming it, explain it.

werideatdawn Fri 12-Apr-19 17:23:21

As usual you don't get a straight answer 🙄

justasking111 Fri 12-Apr-19 17:28:14

As usual we are way off topic again (rolls eyes)

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD Fri 12-Apr-19 17:31:18

Well, 'whole-thread deletions' often happens because a thread takes a turn where a vexatious lawyer may try to sink their teeth into it and it's just not worth the bother.

Just by saying that something it transphobic doesn't make it so. These days all it takes to get a twitter ban is to state biology, chemistry or archaeology - so science is transphobic?

I do wonder about people who will stand their ground on the right to denounce anyone (any woman) who says that they believe a man is a man, yet refuses to denounce targeted harassment and threats against such women.

I have yet to see a photo of a woman wearing a t-shirt saying 'kill the ...' with a suffragette colour painted baseball bat jauntily flung over one shoulder or wielding a knife, or see a website selling baseball bats (never cricket bats?) and axes, again painted in the suffragette colours, with clear implication that these are not tools or sports equipment but weapons to harass, if not hurt, actual real women.

titchy Fri 12-Apr-19 17:39:32

I can't see any FWR threads that resemble Swiss cheese. Deleted posts yes, but how many - less than 1% I'm sure. Does less than 1% of posts make MN transphobic? 🤷‍♀️

ScrewyMcScrewup Fri 12-Apr-19 17:44:07

Bigotry has consequences.

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