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AIBU to think that Leave voters who complain about a lack of democracy are hypocrites?

(436 Posts)
KennDodd Wed 03-Apr-19 20:37:14

Because they completely ignore the proven illegalities around the Leave campaign that would have made void the result had the referendum been binding.

DailyMailSucksWails Wed 03-Apr-19 20:42:17

Democracy is getting what they wanted in 2016, not what a majority want now. <shrug>

DippyAvocado Wed 03-Apr-19 20:43:20

I think they have a very narrow view of democracy.

ginghambox Wed 03-Apr-19 20:45:52

You can think that if you want, who cares?

Hereward1332 Wed 03-Apr-19 20:46:41

Absolutely. A majority of the people eligible to vote did not vote to leave, just a majority of those who could be bothered to vote.

Also, a good point made by Donald Tusk this week - this was a second referendum, the first being in 1975.

GuineaPiglet345 Wed 03-Apr-19 20:51:58

I agree, especially as the leave campaign was a pack of lies I don’t think it would be unreasonable to have a 2nd referendum now we know the finer details of what we are voting for.

JustOneMoreStep Wed 03-Apr-19 20:59:31

I think a lot of voters (on both sides of the argument) feel that they weren't 'taken in' by campaign speil and so they feel their vote stands regardless of the legalities.

Personally I think all these arguments along the lines of AIBU that (insert opposite view to op) is wrong/stupid/immoral ARE unreasonable. It is unreasonable to expect others to nullify their viewpoint because you personally disagree. My personal thoughts on the whole situation is that there are pros and cons on all sides, Brexit isn't ruining anything, remaining wouldn't have been the end of the world either. A vote was had and an outcome found. The politicians have a lot to answer for and have handled the whole thing abysmally but as a society we are behaving awfully. Brexit is dividing us, for no reason than showmanship because we don't know one way or the other if the right thing to do is leave or remain, because neither have happened and the evidence is we have survived perfectly well both outside of and within the EU. Brexit isn't damaging anything, the playground bickering, backstabbing and arguing is.

KennDodd Wed 03-Apr-19 21:04:45

Brexit isn't damaging anything

Actually i know a fair few people who have lost their jobs because of Brexit.

JustOneMoreStep Wed 03-Apr-19 21:08:39

As brexit hasn't happened, nobody has lost their job due to brexit, they may have lost their jobs due to people panicking about something that hasn't happened, or because business owners have been stigmatized/bullied/abused because they aren't 'British'' but these are the results of our divided society.

KennDodd Wed 03-Apr-19 21:19:57

Example of jobs lost because of Brexit. -

Organisation that receives EU funding, funding has ended, not replaced by local government. Jobs lost.
Company that imports raw material from EU, produces product, export almost all back to EU. Moved to the Netherlands because of Brexit/No Deal uncertainty.
Distribution company imports product from outside the EU, sales and warehousing based in UK, product then distributed across EU (88% of sales) from UK. Also moving to the Netherlands.

I could go on as I visit business for work, including lots of exporters. Brexit is having a very negative affect on them.This is happening already and you're right, we haven't even left yet.

BoundByBriars Wed 03-Apr-19 21:26:50

Ken If there were proven illegalities in the leave campaign that void the result of the referendum, why hasn’t it indeed been cancelled?

Hereward Has it actually been proven that more of the people (who voted or not) want to remain? How are we supposed to make a decision that includes the views of those who, as you put it, couldn’t be bothered to vote when they don’t indicate their preference? Surely their opinions simply don’t count?

Genuine questions. I stopped being able to read anything about the whole blasted thing ages ago.

I didn’t vote to leave but I wouldn’t be afraid of going with the result if we had a clear plan and strong leadership. But I now wish there was an easy way out (like it being deemed illegal/void) as it’s such a bloody mess!

Thinkinghappythoughts Wed 03-Apr-19 21:33:07

This whole Brexit mess has shown that democracy is a lot more complicated than winner takes it all. The leave campaign was shocking. In a country like Ireland which regularly holds referendums it wouldn't have been allowed to make the claims that it did.

But in my view and in terms of democracy, it is TM's conduct in the house of commons that has been the real travesty of democracy. The government had to be taken to the supreme court to be forced to allow parliament to vote on article 50. Ministers have got away with proven lies to the HoC. The government has been in contempt. TM is forcing through her vote on the WA multiple times while running down the clock. Cash for votes bribes by TM to MPs to vote for her deal.

Basically, to get Brexit the UK population was lied to get the majority and then the rules for democracy have been completely abused by the government to secure Brexit. Although they are shockingly incompetent, so God knows what will actually happen.

Thinkinghappythoughts Wed 03-Apr-19 21:36:49

If there were proven illegalities in the leave campaign that void the result of the referendum, why hasn’t it indeed been cancelled?

Why do you think? TM won't allow it to be investigated. She has been pandering to the ERG since she came power. There is no way this government would do anything to question the outcome. It is the holy grail for them

Hereward1332 Wed 03-Apr-19 21:40:44

Has it actually been proven that more of the people (who voted or not) want to remain? No of course not, but the claims that a majority voted to leave and that it is therefore the will of the British people are similarly not proven. You could say that c.65% did not express a desire to leave. I would say to make such a drastic change, a majority of the electorate should have to vote.

The referendum was advisory, in the same way indicative votes in parliament are advisory.

Lastly, taxpaying EU citizens resident in the UK had no voice whereas commonwealth citizens did. That's not really democracy.

DippyAvocado Thu 04-Apr-19 07:43:23

If there were proven illegalities in the leave campaign that void the result of the referendum, why hasn’t it indeed been cancelled?

Because it was passed through parliament as an advisory referendum only, there are no legal grounds to cancel it because it was not a legally binding vote. It has already been through the UK courts who found that if it had been legally binding it would have been declared null and void! So now we are in the ridiculous situation of "having" to follow through on a purely advisory referendum that would have been re-run if it had been a proper election. Madness!

BishopBrennansArse Thu 04-Apr-19 07:52:39

YANBU

It's ok for Theresa May to have multiple votes but the public's first vote is decisive despite illegal practices and Russian interference.

Anon10 Thu 04-Apr-19 08:07:09

Yes. Absolutely they are hypocrites. They are terrified of a second referendum because they know how marginal the original vote was and the shit show that Brexit has been since means Leave would
never win again. It’s completely unworkable. Also, it really does seem that no Leaver can give a detailed and considered reason why leaving would be in the interests of this country. And the reason they can’t vocalise their rationale to leave? It’s all about immigration. Which is insane as with our aging population, more people relying on social care, we need Immigration. Also interestingly migration from non EU countries has been at all time high since the referendum. So I don’t think Brexit will mean that they get what they want anyway. The wool is being pulled over their eyes. Everyone will be poorer, especially the poor. The NHS will sink with no EU workers, and a prolonged austerity will be the final nail in its coffin. And we will be left in a vulnerable position with no one to stand up for our workers rights. It’s economic suicide.

WizzyBee Thu 04-Apr-19 08:18:12

But we'll all be able to sit and look at our blue passports with pride knowing we've 'taken back control'

....while ignoring the shitstorm that got us there, the collapsing economy and being the laughing stock of the world.

Just think of the blue passports....

confused

Tolleshunt Thu 04-Apr-19 09:38:08

Ah, but Wizzy, it's sovereignty.

Our right to be governed solely by our own scheming, duplicitous psychopaths, I mean politicians.

longwayoff Thu 04-Apr-19 09:44:04

Yes. That's exactly what I think. And you're putting it nicely.

Gilbert1A Thu 04-Apr-19 10:07:33

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

longwayoff Thu 04-Apr-19 10:16:55

Well there's the fish as well Gilbert, how do you fancy an unrelenting diet of mackerel and herring? They'll be depending on you to support them by putting your money where your mouth is.

Gilbert1A Thu 04-Apr-19 10:24:38

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ItsAllGone19 Thu 04-Apr-19 10:25:40

I think Leave voters complaining about a lack of democracy are idiots who don't understand the British governing system and how democracy works here.

For what it's worth, if the referendum was legally binding Brexit wouldn't happen because the campaign was conducted illegally...either way the average Leave voter doesn't seem to understand basic rules if they're offended by continuing debate about an irrevocable change to the country.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer Thu 04-Apr-19 10:25:43

dippy has it spot on

Should be headlines in all the papers

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