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To question my long held beliefs against capital punishment after what happened to Alesha MacPhail

(350 Posts)
Noteventhebirdsareupyet Sat 23-Mar-19 08:42:50

Hi all,

I have recently been really shaken by the Alesha MacPhailcase and possibly because I now have a tiny daughter of my own, I am feeling really affected by what has happened.

I have always had reasonably strong views against capital punishment and have often argued that:

No one has the right to take the life of another.

When capital punishment is lawful, mistakes are made and innocent people get killed.

We are supposedly a civilised society.

Often offenders were victims first and therefore need empathy and have been failed by the system.....

However I am now shocked to find myself thinking that if a person can do the things that Aaron Campbell has done to a tiny, innocent girl and show absolutely no remorse, then perhaps instead of spending hundreds of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money keeping him incarcerated and then putting communities at risk upon his release, maybe we as a society should say that this person is intrinsically evil and has no place among us.

I honestly never imagined myself feeling like this and maybe it is because I am now a mother that I do. Surely people like him don't deserve a second chance and should be killed before they ruin more lives.

Am I being unreasonable to feel like this? Has anyone else had a turning point like me? I feel that my family and friends would be a bit shocked to hear me say "let's kill dangerous criminals" but this incident has had a profound effect on my outlook and I feel like I can't voice my opinions out loud.

YouBumder Sat 23-Mar-19 10:01:30

I don’t understand the outrage and prisoners getting xboxes and tv etc, if indeed this is a thing and not just out of the pages of the DM. A gilded cage is still a cage. His punishment is the deprivation of his liberty and that he has no chance of a normal life. Which is of course as it should be, but I don’t see how removing a tv and an Xbox would actually make his punishment “worse”.

Whitney168 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:02:41

I used to be all for capital punishment when younger, but have changed my mind now - frankly, mostly because America demonstrates that it's not an effective deterrent anyway and the cost associated with the amount of red tape that it takes to get anyone to the conclusion of that sentence is certainly not a cost saving anyway.

There is no easy answer to cases like this. He should clearly never be released though, and like others I wouldn't shed a tear if he decided to take his own life.

ScreamingValenta Sat 23-Mar-19 10:03:12

I don't think it's a decision to be made on the basis of an emotional response to a particular murder.
Would so many people be coming out in support of the death penalty if the victim had been an adult man?

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 10:05:14

@echt Why is this case beyond horrific and irredeemable? Must I? Others may want to skip this post.

Have I said this? Clue: no.

Lifeisabeach09 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:07:19

Some persons are beyond rehabilitation. I'm not a fan of this word but I do feel there are some really evil folks in the world-do harm (rape, murder etc) without conscience and empathy.
Unpopular and purportedly barbaric as it is--I'm in favour of the death penalty, to be applied only in extreme cases.
I agree with PPs that life should mean life though.

Chlo1674 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:08:44

Nicknacky who gives a shit about his mental health issues? I don’t. He’s a vile evil little shit. I watched the sentencing video and heard the mother’s screams (which were presumably after he turned to smile at her). That will stay with me forever. As a mum of a little girl myself I found the whole case especially upsetting.

NCforthis2019 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:09:01

I believe in capital punishment - for personal reasons very close to me. It’s a shame that I (and all of you) will have to pay for a somewhat comfortable life for this boy who thought it was ok to rape and murder a 6 year old. Apparently he had to stop himself from laughing when the verdict was read. What a great specimen for humanity. He gets to live - albeit in contained circumstances while a child was brutally raped and murdered.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 10:09:41

This is a vile and dispicable individual, he should suffer for the rest of his life in prison not in luxury, but the bare minimum. No playstations, TV, luxuries, but hard graft, basic food and lights out at 9pm.

Noteventhebirdsareupyet Sat 23-Mar-19 10:11:00

UnspiritualHome, since you are determined to dredge up any example of a case where someone was wrongly convicted, what about a hypothetical question: someone is caught raping and killing a child on cctv. You still believe they have a right to life even if they are guilty beyond any doubt whatsoever?

In response to your comment about AC being 16 and therefore escaping capital punishment anyway, I suppose I'm forced to admit that I think anyone guilty of a crime like this deserves to die whether they are 10 or 110. I am shocked to feel like this but I do. John Venebles and Robert Thompson (who is now reportedly enjoying his life safely benefiting from anonymity by the way) should have been killed age 10 and not released.

givemesteel Sat 23-Mar-19 10:11:00

I don't support the death penalty as I don't believe one human has the right to take the life of another. Even if that's what they have done.

The death penalty I don't think is cheaper because of the legal costs, they get so many appeals etc.

But in cases like these, any child murder cases, or where the murder us just random and in cold blood, then life should mean life. I would pay more tax for longer sentences for violent crimes.

I do think suicide should be an option for these people though, if there's a rope in the corner of the cell and they decide to use it then win-win, the state saves money on their incarcaration without the legal costs of the death penalty.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 10:13:20

What if he does get a conscience? What if he does empathise?

He's 16, after all.

Unpopular and purportedly barbaric as it is--I'm in favour of the death penalty, to be applied only in extreme cases

Would you care to define those cases?

Haz1516 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:13:37

@echt apologies, you asked me to explain why I felt people might not understand how extreme his crime was. Basically, I was trying to make the point that it went been murder (as terrible as that ever is).

Anyway, it will always be a super emotive subject, so obviously arguments about it will always become linked to emotion. I know everyone feels it's terrible. But for me personally, I think in these extreme beyond doubt cases then the death penalty should be considered. I don't expect the law to change anytime soon though, and I do understand why others feel it should never be allowed, as I did once feel this too.

Haz1516 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:14:35

Beyond not been

HelloToMyKitty Sat 23-Mar-19 10:14:47

I still think the death penalty is fine in principle. Problem in the States is that it has too often been used in more run-of-the-mill cases because of traditional beliefs about punishment and deterrence.

We know deterrence doesn’t work. And punishment is beside the point.

For instance, the New Zealand killer should be executed. Timothy McVeigh’s execution was the right call. Breivnik is practically laughing at us from his comfy cell. Some crimes are just too great; these people should be put down like rabid dogs. There’s no chance of rehabilitation so what is the point?

Noteventhebirdsareupyet Sat 23-Mar-19 10:16:24

TooTrueToBeGood

I haven't once claimed to be special or more affected by this case than anyone else, just stated that it has really upset me and made me question my own beliefs.

Thanks for being the first proper nut job to join the thread though, there's always one!

knitandpearl Sat 23-Mar-19 10:17:31

It's already possible to alter videos in a way that's basically undetectable. It wont be long before all video evidence will have some level of doubt. Technology and crime are always in an arms race.
And I think I'd rather pay for someone to live in prison than live in a society where I could be legally killed. Of course I'd rather pay to contribute to a society that does everything it can to avoid raising killers (not saying that 'society is to blame' in this particular case)

Lifeisabeach09 Sat 23-Mar-19 10:17:55

Would you care to define those cases?

No.

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 10:17:58

Yes, OP, I do believe that people who have killed beyond any doubt have a right to life, for all the reasons I have explained above, but primarily because to kill them puts us on a par with or even below them. If you want an example of such a person, look at Ian Brady: for him, being kept alive was a much, much greater punishment than hanging.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 10:18:24

UnspiritualHome, since you are determined to dredge up any example of a case where someone was wrongly convicted, what about a hypothetical question: someone is caught raping and killing a child on cctv. You still believe they have a right to life even if they are guilty beyond any doubt whatsoever?

Fuck your hypothetical CCTV rapes and consider the actual number of people killed by the state when innocent:

www.newsweek.com/one-25-executed-us-innocent-study-claims-248889

artemisdubois Sat 23-Mar-19 10:18:55

I don't want a return to capital punishment, but there are some people I wouldn't be overly sad to hear had taken their own life in prison.

The thought of the amount of money that will have to be spent protecting society from this one individual for (hopefully/likely) the rest of his life is a bit galling.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 10:19:21

Would you care to define those cases?

No

Bless.

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 10:20:52

I have to say, OP, the point where you advocated the execution of 10 year olds is the point where I really struggle to believe you when you claim to have had strong views against capital punishment in the past.

Nicknacky Sat 23-Mar-19 10:21:01

Chlo Two points to that. 1. He doesn’t have mental health issues. 2. If he had any then no I wouldn’t give a shit.

I never said I did care about his mental health.

Alsohuman Sat 23-Mar-19 10:21:54

I’m entirely with Janeyre. The treatment she describes used to be the standard way prisoners were treated, they didn’t go mad. Prison for a waste of oxygen like this one should be a deeply unpleasant experience and it should be for the rest of his natural life.

MrsJayy Sat 23-Mar-19 10:24:07

A few of you are saying that you could hear response of her mum in court who broadcast that? bloody hell that is horrific the news site i watched had the decency to edit any sound out apart from the judge.

Nicknacky Sat 23-Mar-19 10:27:31

MrsJayy it was on the live feed, there was no time delay.

MrsJayy Sat 23-Mar-19 10:32:34

Ah ok I saw it later on obviously with time delay I couldn't stop thinking about her mum she looked ^so alone^coming out of court I know that probably doesn't make sense and of course she had support its just heartbreaking.

Userplusnumbers Sat 23-Mar-19 10:35:38

And I think I'd rather pay for someone to live in prison than live in a society where I could be legally killed

This - I honestly do understand the strength of feeling, but aside from the arguments about innocent people, it removes the concept if rehabilitation - and that's a slippery slope. We start allowing it for certain types of crime, and then what? China being a good example, where many of their estimated 2000 executions a year are carried out for economic crimes, not violent crimes.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 10:36:15

Despite the individual being 'only 16', he knew exactly what he was doing, and was cold and calculating, no sympathy at all. All my thoughts and sadness are with this poor little girl and her family, who will never ever see her again, and who was murdered in the most horrific way in a place that was meant to be safe for her!

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-47568603

museumum Sat 23-Mar-19 10:40:06

I feel that we shouldn’t make decisions we wouldn’t be willing to carry out ourselves. I would not want to drag away and kill anyone with my bare hands. Even him. I would not watch a public hanging or beheading. I think no amount of attempts to civilise the act with technology like electric chairs and lethal injection set-ups changes the reality of what’s happening so I don’t think we (as a society) should do it.

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 10:45:31

UnspiritualHome, since you are determined to dredge up any example of a case where someone was wrongly convicted, what about a hypothetical question: someone is caught raping and killing a child on cctv. You still believe they have a right to life even if they are guilty beyond any doubt whatsoever?

Dredge up a case?! It's not dredging up, it's pointing out the great big fuckoff flaw in the argument for the death penalty.

As for your example, it's inherently implausible given both the low quality of most CCTV footage and the fact that people who want to rape and kill children usually make at least some effort to cover it up. And anyone who does feel like doing it is going to ensure there are no CCTV cameras nearby as soon as this law is on the statute books. So this is a pointless question.

But ok, let's say we institute a rule that the death penalty can be applied to anyone where there's CCTV evidence definitely showing them raping and murdering a child. The number of offences this would cover is going to be zero, if strictly applied. But it wouldn't be, because people make mistakes and some cases get politicised. Sooner or later the safeguards we have available will be eroded if the court and society thinks someone has done something sufficiently awful.

OwlinaTree Sat 23-Mar-19 10:50:45

Well people generally choose to break the law in these type of cases. They know it's wrong. But they do it anyway, thinking they won't get caught. I can't see people not committing a crime just because of the death penalty as a deterrent. They'll still think they'll get away with it.

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 10:53:25

There isn't any evidence that the death penalty for severe crimes reduces the rates.

Shelbybear Sat 23-Mar-19 10:57:37

It's an easy way out though for them. Imagine knowing you'll be in jail for potentially forever. On the other hand imagine he does actually get out after his sentence, he still has many years to live.

However, if they had a referendum I would vote yes to bring it back. I know this view isn't held by most on Mumsnet but I can't think of anyone I know that would vote for no in real life.

FoxFoxSierra Sat 23-Mar-19 11:03:35

He may have only been sentenced to 27 years but he will not ever get out, he will be thoroughly assessed before being considered for release and as it seems totally clear that he has no remorse it doesn't look like he can be rehabilitated so will never not pose a risk to the public. Whatever happens to him now the things he did to that poor little girl can never be undone

User10fuckingmillion Sat 23-Mar-19 11:06:11

No decent nation has capital punishment. Besides, the murderer in this case is 16, and we haven’t had 16 year olds killed since 1933 officially, and no-one under 18 has actually been killed since 1889.
I don’t want to go back to 1889 no matter how evil and sadistic some people are.

Jsmith99 Sat 23-Mar-19 11:19:22

I am and have always been opposed to the death penalty, not because I’m some sort of naive bleeding-heart do-gooder (I’m far from it), but because history teaches us that the possibility of miscarriages of justice can never be entirely eliminated.

I do, however, take the view that in particularly appalling cases such as that of Aaron Campbell, Thompson & Venables, Ian Huntley, Adebolajo & Adebowale who murdered Fusilier Lee Rigby etc etc whole life terms are entirely justified. Life should mean Life.

Mehaveit Sat 23-Mar-19 11:21:52

It wasn't OK for him to kill her so it isn't OK to kill him.

That said, life should mean life and his life in prison should be hard. Not because of paedophile hunters threatening him but because of hard graft making something useful of himself.

Notwotuknow Sat 23-Mar-19 11:33:21

My opinions/reasons for CP have evolved as I've aged. I do believe that there's a place for CP within society.

In this case, he's admitted it, so there'd be no miscarriage of justice.

Not everyone can be rehabilitated and for such a heinous crime, I think we'd be safer as a society with him dead. I don't believe the prison system rehabilitates many inmates, and I think it's too soft anyway. It's not a punishment, or a deterrent, to most criminals.

In this case, I believe prison is too good for him.
To me, CP is not so much about punishment or acting as a deterrent anyway, and that's beside the point; it's about keeping society safe, and ridding our planet of those that can't be rehabilitated (like pedophiles).
Why waste money keeping him? He doesn't deserve it, and it serves no purpose as he'll never be safe to release.
I would have no qualms executing him, and I believe it would be for the best all round.

travellinglighter Sat 23-Mar-19 11:33:26

Let’s face facts, if he fell down the stairs and broke his neck, very few people would care. Planning a state sanctioned execution is very different. Mistakes would be made and innocent people would be executed.

If you’re worrying about the money consider this. California reintroduced the death penalty a few years ago and have executed 80 since its reintroduction. The amount of money they have spent on the death penalty would have kept those people they executed in prison for more than 300 years. They have executed the innocent.

When you plan to kill someone then they will fight you every step of the way. They will appeal, look for new evidence and hearings, appeal for clemency and all on legal aid.

EmeraldShamrock Sat 23-Mar-19 11:33:49

He will be out by 50. It is a heart breaking crime, disgusting lowlife.
I hope he takes his own life, for public safety.
His mother was a great help in advising the
Police of his strange behaviour on the night.
She must be broken.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 11:44:04

I totally loath the 'he was only 16, a child brigade' minimising and excusing this horrendous crime. Aleesha was only 6 a little girl, who had to endure what no adult or child should have to endure from a cold blooded killer who was 2 years off being an adult. As I said, life should be life, he should have the bare minimum to survive in prison, I think that is a very good punishment.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 11:44:50

The last face she saw before she died, was not her loving parents, but a cold heartless killer.

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 11:45:09

There can absolutely be miscarriages of justice when someone has admitted to a crime. I'm not saying there was one in this instance, but people can and do make confessions when they haven't actually done it. The frequent failure to understand this is one of the many reasons we shouldn't have the death penalty.

araiwa Sat 23-Mar-19 11:45:57

Changing your mind because of a recent case just indicates to me that you didnt really think about it much before.

Sadly this is not the only time this kind of crime has happened or will happen again

Look at countries around the world with tbe death penalty- a motley crew for sure that iwouldnt want to be part of

Notwotuknow Sat 23-Mar-19 11:47:54

I also don't think they should be allowed to keep appealing the decision either.
IMO, the execution should be carried out swiftly, within days of the verdict, and they should not kept alive for years.

I think that the decision to execute should be based on several factors including severity of crime, likelihood of rehabilitation, high proof of guilt, e.g., confession, and it should only be allowed for certain classes of crimes, and it should have to meet all criteria.

CraXXed Sat 23-Mar-19 11:48:25

There is no such thing as a perfect system therefore it is best to avoid a system with no recourse.

There will always be individual circumstances that make society want to tip that balance, we have to be smarter than that.

Notwotuknow Sat 23-Mar-19 11:51:24

The problem with that, Aeroflotgirl, is that prison isn't harsh or uncomfortable. It's way too cushy and they have way too many privileges and time out of their cells. Prison is no longer a punishment or a deterrent. It doesn't seem particularly good at rehabilitation either.

SerenDippitty Sat 23-Mar-19 11:54:03

*I also don't think they should be allowed to keep appealing the decision either.
IMO, the execution should be carried out swiftly, within days of the verdict, and they should not kept alive for years.*

So what happens when new evidence comes to light that indicates they were innocent or might have caused their actions to be seen in a different light? Stand by the grave and say “sorry mate”?

GenericHamster Sat 23-Mar-19 11:54:50

I am against the death sentence.

However, I did follow the case and made the mistake of listening to the live sentencing which was very upsetting. AC is barely a human being. I understand he is young and his mind will continue to evolve but he is as close to a monster as you can get. I don't think he will suddenly develop empathy.

The only 'good' thing about that case is that he was caught early. If he had decided to kill for the first time when he was at uni in a big city, when he was a bit cleverer at covering his tracks, I dread to think what he might've done.

I'm still pretty sure I'm against the death sentence but I hate the fact this guy is alive, costing us money. Ugh.

I hope he'll never get out but I do wonder if, when he's eligible to ask for parole, he'll be clever enough to pretend to be remorseful.

Mysterian Sat 23-Mar-19 11:58:07

It's understandable that the animal urge for revenge could appear in your heart, but your brain says it's wrong and you follow that. The killer had an urge too. I'm sure his brain said it was wrong as well but he didn't listen.

Lovestonap Sat 23-Mar-19 12:14:57

It's funny I understand the want to kill such abhorrent murderers, and yet in cases of murder where the perpetrator has killed themselves in the process I feel angry that they have escaped and not had to face justice.
I am against the death penalty. I too suspect he will not lead a cushy life in prison if that will comfort you at all, despite what tabloids would have you believe prisons are not social clubs. In addition child murderers and paedophiles are not popular in prison society. (However surprisingly few are actually killed in UK prisons, Ian Huntley is still alive).

I fantasise about having a super power where I could just very gently put people to sleep without being caught. I'd just lightly touch them and they would die in their sleep. No distress, just removed from this world. Probably for the best that neither I nor anyone else has this power!

OP I think it's OK to feel and express this. Although I don't know if you REALLY believe it. For example, are you likely to start an online petition to bring it back, or lobby your MP about it?

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 12:16:30

Mysterian are you for real, I am sure you would not be saying that if that happened to your young child! He was a nasty evil child killer, please don't forget that.

EmeraldShamrock Sat 23-Mar-19 12:48:00

Had a urge my arse, An urge is to stuff the chocolate cake, not rape and murder a child, blaming his conscious for not being loud enough is ridiculous. He is evil, most likely always has been a growing psychopath.
RIP Alesha.

HelloToMyKitty Sat 23-Mar-19 12:51:30

it's inherently implausible given both the low quality of most CCTV footage and the fact that people who want to rape and kill children usually make at least some effort to cover it up

What about the NZ killer? Evidence is enough to execute him right? How about Chris Watts?

I don’t believe that death penalty is a deterrent at all nor do I think that punishment is the point. Their death in a civilized system will always be more merciful than their victims.

But some people need to be taken down like a rabid dog. Just done away with quietly for the good of society.

I also think there is no way that prison will become harsher. Countries that outlaw death penalty are also against forced labor/harsh prison conditions.

Besides, rehabilitation is a fine goal but we all know there is a minority of people that can never be helped. It’s almost insulting to try.

AuchAyeTheNo Sat 23-Mar-19 12:53:18

plainspeaking he is NOT a child!

16 year olds are considered adults in a Scotland for many things. Personally I would love to bring back the death penalty for cases such as this. Why should he be allowed to live even in prison?

Do the world a favour and hang him!

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 12:56:51

There is evidence that certain people are definitely guilty of specific crimes, yes. But OPs example was a daft one and even if it weren't, when the death penalty exists it doesn't stay confined to narrow, definitely guilty circumstances. It's all very well theorising about safeguards, but there's no system where it actually works like that. Systems that involve humans mean human error.

Nicknacky Sat 23-Mar-19 12:58:41

In Scotland for criminal purposes a 16 year old is an older child and will be treated differently than an 18 year old.

The latest change in law in Scotland changed even changed for how 16 year olds are treated in a police office during interview.

I don’t necessarily agree with it, but a 16 year old is NOT an adult for criminal proceedings.

SauvignonBlanche Sat 23-Mar-19 12:59:42

As horrific and disturbing as this case was I could not condone state executions of anyone, particularly children. I find your comment below to be very disturbing.

I suppose I'm forced to admit that I think anyone guilty of a crime like this deserves to die whether they are 10 or 110. I am shocked to feel like this but I do.... John Venebles and Robert Thompson should have been killed age 10 and not released

Inliverpool1 Sat 23-Mar-19 13:03:30

Robert Thompson hasn’t re offended to our knowledge, he was traumatised and only guilty by association.

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:04:36

Despite the individual being 'only 16', he knew exactly what he was doing, and was cold and calculating, no sympathy at all

What is the relevance of whether you have sympathy? No-one on here is suggesting Campbell should be sympathised with.

I totally loath the 'he was only 16, a child brigade' minimising and excusing this horrendous crime.

Again, I haven't seen anyone doing this.

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:09:15

Prison is no longer a punishment or a deterrent.

Really? Wouldn't it deter you from committing a crime, Notwotuknow? I have to admit I'm pretty deterred by the prospect of being locked up for years of end, unable to see my friends and family when I want to, with no choice about what I do. If my potential crime was such that it also involved being banged up with a load of violent people many of whom will be looking for a chance of cheap glory by maiming me, it would definitely be a major deterrent.

And, of course, there is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent. It's worth reflecting on the fact that we still had it when Brady and Hindley started killing children.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:11:18

Mysterian are you for real, I am sure you would not be saying that if that happened to your young child!

So , by that logic, areoflot what would you be saying if it was your child who killed another child?

MorrisZapp Sat 23-Mar-19 13:13:40

Nope. On every level. Putting aside the morals, CP makes vastly more problems than it solves.

Look at the USA. In states with CP, murder rates are no lower. So its not a deterrent.

Nor does it save money. The exhaustive appeal process means that often, even more money is spent.

Convictions. Its hard to get convictions for murder and rape already. Would you send someone to their death, if you were on a jury?

Guilty v not guilty. Do you suggest making a third category, called OMG TOTALLY GUILTY which allows for CP? What about those found ordinary guilty? Just life in prison for them?

Who does the killing? Increasingly, people in the USA don't want the job of executioner. In some states, there's a backlog of executions because the drug manufacturers have withdrawn the licence for their products to be used in this way.

It doesn't work. None of the logic adds up. We can't just euthanize 'the worst criminals' because who says who the worst ones are?

That's why no civilised society will ever adopt it.

Biancadelrioisback Sat 23-Mar-19 13:14:05

I feel like prison is too good for people like him. I really do. I dont know what I would suggest instead but I know if it was my child who was murdered I would wish him dead. I think he is evil and I hate the idea that one day he could be released into society. I don't want my money to feed him. I don't want my money to provide him shelter and warmth.

I understand why the death penalty isn't a thing over here. And I agree. Largely. But I don't agree with us funding his life in prison either.

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 13:15:09

Thinking more on the subject of the New Zealand terrorist, on purely pragmatic grounds, I don't think it's a good idea to give people like him the opportunity to be seen as martyrs of the state. In a lot of cases, death is what they want, and it has propaganda value. I appreciate that sometimes terrorists will have to be killed by state forces just before or during their murder sprees. Nothing to be done about that. But afterwards, no. Jihadists in particular are in a death cult. Of course we shouldn't give them that!

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:16:33

Is there anyone on this thread who can tell us what holiday in jail is like?

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:16:55

For 27 years?

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:17:43

I'm quite sure that if my child were murdered I would want the perpetrator dead. In fact, I would want the death to be slow and very, very painful. But I really don't think that society can be governed by anyone's primitive revenge responses.

MillyMollyMandie Sat 23-Mar-19 13:19:59

I was previously supported the death penalty but now I’m much older I’ve changed my opinion entirely.

There will always be miscarriages of justice and on innocent person put to death is one too many. Also, I’d never want anything to do with people knowing their loved one was to be executed. I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. It’s beyond human.

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 13:20:07

Bilal Abdullah for example, the Glasgow airport attempted bomber, I'm actually pleased he's still alive and in prison. He wanted martyrdom and he hasn't got it. I'm kind of sorry Kafeel Ahmed died too. It's saved us paying for his incarceration I suppose, but death is what he wanted.

SauvignonBlanche Sat 23-Mar-19 13:20:32

I really don't think that society can be governed by anyone's primitive revenge responses.

I agree people can come out with sick things like suggesting the execution of 10 year olds.

rebecca102 Sat 23-Mar-19 13:22:17

Nope fuck that guy. If that little girl was my daughter I'd kill him myself. Even if I had to wait for him to get out of prison, he'd be dead not long after his release.

Fuck you aaron campbell you heap of SHIT!

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:25:01

He will be out by 50.

Incredibly unlikely. Remember, this is only a minimum sentence and that, in order to be released, he will have to satisfy a parole board very thoroughly indeed that he is fit and safe to be released. Given that he appears, at the very least, to have strong psychopathic tendencies and it is highly unlikely that we will find a way to reverse that in the next 27 years, I can't see how he can achieve that.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 13:25:11

Unspiritual I am giving my opinion like all on here, and yes I have seen it a couple of times.

What if he does get a conscience? What if he does empathise?

He's 16, after all.

It's understandable that the animal urge for revenge could appear in your heart, but your brain says it's wrong and you follow that. The killer had an urge too. I'm sure his brain said it was wrong as well but he didn't listen

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 13:27:35

echt he was not a child in criminal proceedings. We have urges to eat cake, or buy clothes, not to rape and murder 6 year old little girls in their beds. I bet you would not be so supportive if you were in her parent's awful position, stop minimising his crimes.

americandream Sat 23-Mar-19 13:29:45

There are some ghastly apologists on this thread.

I can't believe some of the things I am reading.

Sickening. sad

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:33:26

What if he does get a conscience? What if he does empathise?

I don't understand the relevance? Does that make it better or worse to kill him?

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:33:51

americandream, who's apologising for what?

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:35:29

And, again, Aeroflotgirl, how is echt in any way minimising Campbell's crimes?

People really need to move away from the notion that not supporting capital punishment means that you must condone murder. It's simply nonsense.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:35:38

echt he was not a child in criminal proceedings. We have urges to eat cake, or buy clothes, not to rape and murder 6 year old little girls in their beds. I bet you would not be so supportive if you were in her parent's awful position, stop minimising his crimes.

Aeroflot. Please say where I have minimised his cirmes.
If I were the parents of the murdered child, I would, as I have said upthread, had you bothered to read my post, be very specific as to my desires. And their relevance to justice.

EdWinchester Sat 23-Mar-19 13:36:11

I am opposed to the death penalty and always will be.

And btw, in the US, it costs more to keep someone in prison for life than to execute them.

But a life sentence should mean life in cases like this.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 13:36:36

Unspiritial I never said kill him, but he needs to have a full life sentence in prison with the bare minimum. Let the vile evil pondlife live with it for the rest of his sad miserable life.

UnspiritualHome Sat 23-Mar-19 13:38:21

Aeroflot, I would completely agree that unless he satisfies very stringent criteria for release, which in itself is extremely unlikely, he absolutely should stay in prison for the rest of his life.

Sitdownstandup Sat 23-Mar-19 13:38:25

There seem to be more posts on this thread complaining about apologists than actual apologist posts.

Part of me kind of finds the honesty refreshing when people admit they'd be happy to see the death penalty used on 10 year olds (and younger?). It is disturbing, obviously, but in comparison to the bullshitting and denial when people pretend we could have a death penalty that never executed anyone innocent, at least there's no delusion involved.

floribunda18 Sat 23-Mar-19 13:38:56

I would rather society's energies are thrown into why is nearly always men, and sometimes young men and boys, who commit horrific violent crimes, and crime generally.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:39:23

What if he does get a conscience? What if he does empathise?
I don't understand the relevance? Does that make it better or worse to kill him?

This was a reference to another poster who implied that these aspects told against the murderer. I offered the position that if he later grew and enveloped these capacities, how would we view him?

Please read the posts.

EdWinchester Sat 23-Mar-19 13:40:19

In response to your comment about AC being 16 and therefore escaping capital punishment anyway, I suppose I'm forced to admit that I think anyone guilty of a crime like this deserves to die whether they are 10 or 110. I am shocked to feel like this but I do. John Venebles and Robert Thompson should have been killed age 10 and not released.

This is a monstrous viewpoint. Have you actually thought about what you're saying here? You'd have condoned 10 year old children being murdered by the state?

Dramatical Sat 23-Mar-19 13:40:38

Robert Thompson hasn’t re offended to our knowledge, he was traumatised and only guilty by association.

Fucking hell. Guilty by association 😢

BlackPrism Sat 23-Mar-19 13:41:33

I think capital punishment is the only option that would ease a lot of people's fear... but it's still not right. Max security prisons, life meaning life and solitary for a long time would be preferable.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 13:43:49

echt he still took a little life in the most horrific way, and needs to be appropriately punished, remorseful or not, some criminals use that to try and reduce their sentence, so doubt whether it would be genuine.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:44:14

John Venebles and Robert Thompson should have been killed age 10 and not released

And at what age would consider your own children up for the noose?

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:46:21

echt he still took a little life in the most horrific way, and needs to be appropriately punished, remorseful or not, some criminals use that to try and reduce their sentence, so doubt whether it would be genuine

I agree as to the punishment, but not sure why he needs to look sorry/put on act he doesn't/can't feel.

kateandme Sat 23-Mar-19 13:47:33

Being Pure Evil and doing things like this doesn't equate or mean that you have a mental health problem. You can just be bloody evil and then there's mental health illnesses which are very different why do people keep putting these two together.

EmeraldShamrock Sat 23-Mar-19 13:50:02

And at what age would consider your own children up for the noose?
If my DS done what Campbell done, I would kill him myself.
If he faced capital punishment so be it.

echt Sat 23-Mar-19 13:52:53

And at what age would consider your own children up for the noose

*If my DS done what Campbell done, I would kill him myself.
If he faced capital punishment so be it*

I wasn't asking you.

Dahlietta Sat 23-Mar-19 13:55:11

You can just be bloody evil and then there's mental health illnesses which are very different why do people keep putting these two together.

I suppose because it's difficult to believe that somebody who would look at a sleeping little 6yo girl and be overcome by a desire to take her from her bed and rape and murder her is entirely right in the head.

Inliverpool1 Sat 23-Mar-19 13:57:43

kateandme - it clearly is a wrongly wired brain that hurts a 6 year old. I strongly suspect he was off his face on drugs at the time, we’ll never know. But we do know and it’s been proven in the cases that brain damage has occurred in “pure evil” people. I suspect FAS personally

Inliverpool1 Sat 23-Mar-19 13:58:43

Foetal alcohol syndrome btw

PrimalLass Sat 23-Mar-19 13:59:46

What good would it do? It's not a deterrent.

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