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To ask if you see a second EU ref as a sleight against democracy?

(198 Posts)
VladmirsPoutine Wed 20-Mar-19 12:21:08

Is there anyone that thinks that the 2016 outcome should be respected regardless of anything else? If so - how do you square that with the fact that Theresa May has tested her 'exit' deal to Parliament twice and both times been shot down?

How can this be the 'WILL OF THE PEOPLE' given the initial result was 48%/52%.

Just curious where people now stand given we are 9 days away from Brexit. No judgement here just curious how people are interpreting the various outcomes and ongoings...

mothertruck3r Thu 21-Mar-19 09:22:28

Why not address the real, lived experiences and concerns of the millions of people who voted leave - actually talk to people in the north and outside the London bubble who have been left behind, seen their quality of life diminish, have seen rapid and unprecedented change to their communities and actually deal with their concerns rather than just arrogantly dismissing them and calling them racist.

If you actually deal with these issues rather than brushing them under the carpet perhaps these millions of people won't feel the need to vote leave. Otherwise you will just have a situation where this anger and sense of neglect ferments and creates even larger problems down the line.

icannotremember Thu 21-Mar-19 09:24:36

Of course I don't. I'm not a twat.

ChardonnaysPrettySister Thu 21-Mar-19 09:30:26

Why not address the real, lived experiences and concerns of the millions of people who voted leave - actually talk to people in the north and outside the London bubble who have been left behind, seen their quality of life diminish, have seen rapid and unprecedented change to their communities and actually deal with their concerns rather than just arrogantly dismissing them and calling them racist.

Addressing and solving these issues is absolutely necessary. However, with Brexit damaging the economy it will be unlikely, so these leavers cut off their nose in spite of their face.

AutumnCrow Thu 21-Mar-19 09:55:18

You only to read a little bit around the relationship between the official Leave campaign and to see that a lot of 'dirty work' was done to not just manipulate people's fears but to create them in the first place.

foxtiger Thu 21-Mar-19 10:13:09

You only object to a second referendum because you know leave would lose

To be fair, there are Leavers who would like a People's Vote too.

SisyphusDad Thu 21-Mar-19 10:14:28

Only if you think that: voting in a Government in a general election; Government screws up royally; Government voted out in the next election: is undemocratic.

BorisBogtrotter Thu 21-Mar-19 10:38:39

"Actually talk to people in the north and outside the London bubble who have been left behind, seen their quality of life diminish, have seen rapid and unprecedented change to their communities "

However, when you do talk to people regarding this many of there complaints are not actually down to things to do with the EU at all.

The things blamed on immigration are very rarely to do with immigration. "Changes to communities" there are very few places that have had significant change to them because of immigration.

If you listen to people's complains, but the complaints aren't actually valid, then what do you do?

Address the real cause, but make them unhappy because what they thought was the cause doesn't change.

Fear of zombies is at an all time high, zombies don't exist, do we need anti zombie policies?

scaryteacher Thu 21-Mar-19 11:32:18

Oh how we laughed at the Americans for electing Trump Nope, some of us didn't, because we could see why it had happened, and imo, why he will get a second term.

Iggly There's nothing 'potential' about the direction of the EU - it has been evident for a while that the acquis and ever closer union is where it is going. National competencies are being turned into EU ones; QMV is replacing the veto in many areas.

This is what is happening with Switzerland as an example:
'Meanwhile, the EU’s other showdown with a democratic European state is going badly wrong. The Swiss are holding out against the hegemony of the European Court and an attempt to gut their national sovereignty.

Switzerland is facing an excruciating squeeze. Its old bilateral accords with the EU are no longer deemed acceptable. Brussels wants to shut down the idiosyncratic “Swiss model” once and for all.

The country has until the end of June to submit to the EU’s new framework agreement, or see its trading and financial access progressively cut off.

“They were given a six-month ultimatum in December,” said Pieter Cleppe from Open Europe in Brussels. “If the EU carries out its threat, Switzerland will see its market access ­revoked.” The Swiss must accept the sweeping jurisdiction of the ECJ and “dynamic alignment” of EU legislation over migration, social security rules, and other key areas of policy.

“This is a carbon copy of the UK transition arrangement but with the difference that for us it is permanent,” said Thomas Aeschi, the Harvard-trained chief of the Swiss People’s Party (SVP) in the national parliament.

“We end up becoming a passive member of the EU without voting rights. It would be better to join the EU than accept this.

“The other difference is that the document is just 35 pages, unlike your 580-page book.”

Mr Aeschi said cross-clauses in the text allow the ECJ to muscle into sensitive areas covering tax codes, farming, healthcare, and cantonal state-aid policies. Punishment starts with the loss of recognition for the SIX Swiss Exchange and other bourses. It then ratchets up sector by sector as old bilateral accords expire until the country is shut out of the EU’s economic system. It amounts to a sanctions regime. It is a daunting prospect for a nation surrounded on all sides by EU territory. Yet the country is resisting this pressure with remarkable sangfroid. “We shouldn’t allow ourselves to be rushed and we shouldn’t be blackmailed,” said Nicolas Hayek, the founder and chairman of Swatch.

Mr Hayek said the EU market is not the holy grail. “The US and China are also big markets and they like our products,” he said. For good measure, he told Radio SRF that the EU could learn a thing or two from Switzerland’s flexible labour markets, decentralised leadership and aversion to career politicians. Switzerland’s business elites are mostly pushing for an EU deal whatever the implications for sovereignty. So is the Swiss government. But the twin councils of parliament are proving stubborn.

The canton of Ticino says it will ­oppose the deal when it comes to the upper house this month. Schwyz, Zug, and Sankt Gallen are also sceptical.

The Swiss lower house may reject the deal. Four of the five biggest parties are opposed. “The Federal Council is slowly coming to the conclusion that agreement has no chance in Switzerland,” said Corrado Pardini, a leader of the Unia trade union.

Union leaders fear that EU demands will undermine worker protection rights and that cheap labour from Eastern Europe will hold down wages. What is at stake is the integrity of Switzerland’s solidarity and welfare model. This is a nice irony since Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour leadership want Britain to be locked into the EU’s neo-liberal system of worker rights, which operates largely in the interests of big business and transnational capital.

But Swiss direct democracy will have its say. There will almost certainly have to be a public consultation. Voters are likely to reject the deal in its current form. A collapse of the Swiss deal would not pose a major threat to the EU in itself – though it would hurt German firms with intimate links to the Swiss engineering and machine tool sector.

The greater issue is geostrategy. Brussels has to manage its near abroad with care. Relations with Vladimir ­Putin’s Russia broke down over Ukraine. Erdoğan’s Turkey is deeply alienated, dislikes its EU customs arrangement and is drifting into the Putin camp. Norway has been dragged kicking and screaming into the EU’s Third Energy Package.

It is hard to estimate how much damage has been done to future relations with Britain by the hard-nosed negotiating tactics of the Commission, which has taken full advantage of the ­cliff-edge pressure points of the Article 50 process. The fateful decision to weaponise the Irish border as a way to lever the UK into the customs territory – ­under ECJ control – will have strategic consequences.

This is risky statecraft for the Brussels. Much friendship is being sacrificed on the altar of the EU acquis.'

You might think this is acceptable Iggly and that all should fall before the acquis and EU hegemony, but I don't, which is why I voted Leave, and I understood that meant to leave the EU lock, stock and every smoking barrel.

BorisBogtrotter Thu 21-Mar-19 11:50:09

The Swiss can't complain, they want access to the markets but different rules to everyone else.

BTW linking to an opinion piece in the Telegraph doesn't equal fact, it quotes directly from the leader of the right wing populists, you know those ones that brought us Brexit and Trump but have failed to deliver anything they claimed.

I'd also go look at the great deal the Swiss signed with the Chinese, instant Chinese access to the Swiss market, the Swiss have to wait 20 years for full access to the Chinese.

Trump may win a second term, but not because he has done anything he claimed he would. The tax cut benefits the rich and hasn't increased investment, there are no "new jobs" being created in the rust belt and there is no wall ( and Hilary isn't in jail, but all of his campaign managers are).

Trump may still be impeached this term

ahtellthee Thu 21-Mar-19 12:54:22

@scaryteacher I live in CH, close to a border and have done for a long time (pre current bilateral agreements).

It's a very different economy and not comparable.

lubeybooby Thu 21-Mar-19 13:05:54

In answer to the op title no not at all.

We have more information now.. plus May herself seems to think voting and re-voting and re-voting is absolutely fine

scaryteacher Sat 23-Mar-19 20:20:37

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scaryteacher Sat 23-Mar-19 20:38:07

God, two tabs open, wrong thread re: voting

Boris My Swiss friends would disagree with you, and have agreed with the DT article. One of my friends was heavily involved in crafting the Swiss bi lats.

Just because you say something doesn't equal fact...why should I believe you about anything? I'm more likely to believe those I know and who agree with the article.

Again, you might be wrong about Trump, the new opportunity zones in the US may well attract lots of investment, and indeed have started to have an effect in some places, but I expect as it's a right wing policy, you'll say that's crap too. No, Hilary is not in jail, but she is as dodgy as hell from Whitewater to the email server issue to the events in Benghazi, where the buck stops with her. many of my US acquaintances said with a choice of Hilary or Trump. they couldn't decide who was the lesser of two evils.

Aeroflotgirl Sat 23-Mar-19 20:46:08

Yes it is. When will it end. What if the result is the same again, will we keep having referendums until the 'right' result!

LateEaster Sat 23-Mar-19 21:51:52

Scary thanks for that fascinating article!
I'm going to Switzerland for the first time soon.

Everything will be sacrificed at the EU altar. This is what people don't get.

The Idea, the project is more important than anything.

Anything. We get thrown Crumb's whilst the next era of big central government and control is ushered in.

greathat Sat 23-Mar-19 22:05:16

If you can't have a second vote on something then surely democracy is fucked. We get to change our mind in general elections regularly. Why not this, especially now we really do know how fucking stupid an idea it is

greathat Sat 23-Mar-19 22:06:44

Plus I never get what I want in an election. In a Tory stronghold with an MP I loathe

LateEaster Sat 23-Mar-19 22:11:49

People do change minds and evolve indeed. Hence the second vote in 2016 after 40 nigh years of the EU.

40 years and what have we got?

If it's so amazing do you think all these older people would have voted leave.?

We leave now and in another few decades we can see what that brings...

annikin Sat 23-Mar-19 22:13:24

Yes. And I get the feeling that if leave were to win, there would be another vote and another. Yet if remain were ever to win just once, it would be considered the end result and no more votes necessary. That is not democracy.

annikin Sat 23-Mar-19 22:16:01

And yes, you can change your mind after a few years of a government, and have another general election. But, we haven't had a few years of leaving yet to be able to judge it. We still haven't left, so haven't had the opportunity to do any negotiations on trade deals, etc, to see the potential benefits. You can't cancel it before trying it!

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer Sat 23-Mar-19 22:17:22

That is not democracy


Your made up scenario would not be democratic, you are quite right

Daisymay2 Sat 23-Mar-19 22:18:04

I voted in in 1975, and remain in 2016. I have no problem with a 3rd vote- although I don't think Cameron should have had the 2016 referendum (aka the second vote) - it was inappropriate to have it to resolve the Tory party's Europe issues and to try to minimise the threat from UKIP. That worked well.
All it did was to divide the Country and threaten the Union.
However, now we know the terms and have a better understanding of what it really means, another vote is essential.

Havanananana Sat 23-Mar-19 22:22:11

Plus I never get what I want in an election. In a Tory stronghold with an MP I loathe

How about campaigning for an electoral system that actually reflects the wishes of voters? Something like proportional representation (PR), which 40 out of 43 European countries use in various formats, as does the EU itself for MEP elections.

Which countries don't use PR?
France, Belarus (which is a one-party dictatorship) and the UK, which uses the grossly unfair 'first-past-the-post' system that disenfranchises almost 60% of the electorate and which usually results in one party having absolute power despite only obtaining around 32% of the votes cast.

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