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To ask if you see a second EU ref as a sleight against democracy?

(198 Posts)
VladmirsPoutine Wed 20-Mar-19 12:21:08

Is there anyone that thinks that the 2016 outcome should be respected regardless of anything else? If so - how do you square that with the fact that Theresa May has tested her 'exit' deal to Parliament twice and both times been shot down?

How can this be the 'WILL OF THE PEOPLE' given the initial result was 48%/52%.

Just curious where people now stand given we are 9 days away from Brexit. No judgement here just curious how people are interpreting the various outcomes and ongoings...

EmmaGellerGreen Wed 20-Mar-19 12:25:34

I see May’s tactic of continuing to seek votes on her Bill after 2 big failures as being more of an issue. MPs are being browbeaten into changing their minds which can not be right.

Seemingly it is fine for MPs to rethink ( or be forced to do so) but “The People” can not be allowed to do so.

Whatafustercluck Wed 20-Mar-19 12:27:13

I think it would be the most democratic thing to do. Democracy isn't static and the advisory referendum was nearly three years ago and things have changed considerably - not least Parliament's inability to agree a way forward.

Theworldisfullofgs Wed 20-Mar-19 12:28:29

I dont think you can break democracy with more democracy

TheMobileSiteMadeMeSignup Wed 20-Mar-19 12:29:26

It was an advisory referendum with no idea what, if any, deal was likely to look like. I don't see how giving the facts on what leaving will entail and allowing the public an informed decision is anything other than democracy.

KC225 Wed 20-Mar-19 12:31:28

Yes

spanishwife Wed 20-Mar-19 12:33:36

I don't think the original vote was particularly democratic. The government gave us no clue as to what the plan would be, so we were all voting blind. Both campaigns used at best guess work and at worst flat out lies and illegal tactics.

In my opinion second vote with facts and clear outcomes would be the right thing to do.

FunnyTinge Wed 20-Mar-19 12:34:45

I guess most people will now agree that the first referendum was a mistake, another one will be a complete shitshow from start to finish and do nothing to close the Pandora's box that the first one opened, even if it does resolve the immediate Brexit question.

Politicians created this mess - they need to clean it up (even if that means acting in the best interests of the UK, revoking A50 and then taking their punishment in the next GE).

MeredithGrey1 Wed 20-Mar-19 12:34:55

@KC225 Genuine question, what do you think should happen then? I don't think a second referendum is a great solution (but not because I think its undemocratic, which I don't), but I also don't think any of the other suggestions are great solutions either.

SapphireSeptember Wed 20-Mar-19 12:35:31

Definitely not! New things have come to light, people have changed their minds, and we know leaving is going to be a shower of shite, especially as no one can agree on anything! I know a lot of people* who are pro no deal, which I can't wrap my head around. (Why I get stuck with these people? I've had to block people on Facebook because I'm sick of looking at their stupid, badly spelt memes.)

*One of these people has a son on an extended gap year (a mission) in Germany. I wonder how pissed off she'll be if he gets sent home early.

FudgeBrownie2019 Wed 20-Mar-19 12:35:50

Theresa May has asked MP's to reconsider their decision, so it makes sense that the public be allowed to reconsider theirs.

I'm sure Ireland held a referendum recently that they later reneged on, and Finland (?). It's no big deal to think things through and reconsider. It's even less of a big deal to admit when you're wrong - people do it all the time.

Chickychoccyegg Wed 20-Mar-19 12:41:05

At this stage the most democratic thing to do is hold another referendum, with clear facts on outcomes on both sides, people have a better idea what it is they're voting for.

ForalltheSaints Wed 20-Mar-19 12:43:16

I don't object to one, especially as the deal is not what anyone voted for.

totallyrandom Wed 20-Mar-19 12:43:47

Having a second referendum is by definition democratic as you are asking the people what they think. However, the problem is what exactly are you asking the people to vote for? Remain vs withdrawal agreement? Fine by me. If you add in the 3rd option of a “no deal Brexit” no way will parliament agree to this. All their professional advice goes against this. The interesting thing for me is whether the EU will try and meddle and say yes you can have a delay if you put remain vs withdrawal agt to your people. If they do that they would in effect be showing that they really do have all the power and that could backfire!

Rottencooking Wed 20-Mar-19 12:47:00

I don't think a second referendum goes against democracy as what was promised and what people voted for seems to be vastly different to the actuality. The whole thing is invalid. You can't ask people to vote on something they're clueless about and then fuck up our country as well as the rest of Europe because "DEMOCRACY".

The referendum was a lie and should never have happened the way it did.

Cancel this mess and give people a chance to vote on what would ACTUALLY happen.

themoomoo Wed 20-Mar-19 12:47:07

I'm surprised you haven't encountered this yet to be honest.
many people think a second referendum would be a sleight against democracy. many people don't.
if you listen to radio 4 or 5 or maybe a buy a broadsheet newspaper you will find all the various reasons behind each opinion.
I am jealous that you have managed to avoid this whole debate so far!!

SapphireSeptember Wed 20-Mar-19 12:47:28

I think some people are only going to understand why No Deal is a Really Bad Idea until it starts to effect them. I'm all for a second vote, I know some people are saying "Why should people keep voting until they get the outcome they want?" Haven't people been moaning since we first joined the EEC? And also what do they think of General Elections? Cos I keep voting in those hoping I get the result I want!

madeyemoodysmum Wed 20-Mar-19 12:49:56

I would be happy to vote on the content of a deal in a new ref.

I voted leave but I’m not happy with TM deal or the behaviour of parliament as a whole.

I feel very let down and won’t be voting labour or Tory in the next GE.

Frenchfancy Wed 20-Mar-19 12:51:02

The referendum was advisory and as such it didn't have to follow rules such as spending limits during the campaign. Treating it as law is imo undemocratic. The only democratic thing to do is to have a referendum which is binding and therefore has to follow the rules.

Youseethethingis Wed 20-Mar-19 12:51:29

Yes, because the precedent will be set that if the voters give government instructions it doesn’t like, all the government has to do is make a complete arse of implementing those instructions, shrug their shoulders and say “hey, silly People, is this really what you wanted?”.
In 10 years time, once the post Brexit landscape for the UK and the EU itself is known, if there is still enough support for a return back into the EU, of course it would be undemocratic to deny that. Just as I believe it was undemocratic of the last Labour government to deny a vote on the Lisbon treaty.

KidLorneRoll Wed 20-Mar-19 12:56:21

The idea that holding another referendum is undemocratic is patently nonsense. The only reason leavers don't want another one is because they are scared they will lose. If they believed in Brexit, the arguments for it and could articulate them, then they would welcome a chance to put it to bed once and for all.

The fact is, fewer people than in 2016 believe in Brexit and those that are left sure as hell can't come up with a convincing argument as to why it's a good idea, so they oppose another vote.

themoomoo Wed 20-Mar-19 12:58:02

frenchfancy in the whole lead up to the referendum was it ever announced to the public that this vote could be meaningless? do you not think people would feel a little peeved?
And before you say everyone should know the difference between a referendum and a vote; do you really think people gave that any thought before this whole mess.
we were told we were voting whether to stay in or out

themoomoo Wed 20-Mar-19 12:58:57

The fact is, fewer people than in 2016 believe in Brexit
I would dispute that as there is no hard evidence one way or another

scaryteacher Wed 20-Mar-19 12:59:50

I am against a second referendum; if leave wins again, then would we have to have a third go, until the desired result was achieved?

I haven't changed my mind whatsoever about how I voted, and would vote the same way again, given how we can see (if we bother to look) how the EU operates - Switzerland anyone?

I am very angry that the MPs all blithely voted for article 50 to be triggered, and are now wanting to reverse that. Wtf did they think the end result was going to be if a WA couldn't be negotiated, or was a stinker like the WA May had brought back? Did they think that if they all put their fingers in their ears and sang la la la, that the 'nasty' Brexiteers were going to disappear?

I think we have been shown just what a shower of shite most of our MPs are. and how fragile our democracy is. The trust between the governed and the governing was already stretched thinly...I think it is at breaking point now. If the referendum result is not honoured, then it gets interesting, as no-one will trust politicians and won't vote for the established parties, or won't vote at all.

I think we are almost at the point that we are no longer active participants in a democratic process, but rather acted upon by those who pull the levers, and that is not necessarily those whom we have elected.

Gronky Wed 20-Mar-19 13:00:30

I would dispute that as there is no hard evidence one way or another

I would also dispute it on the basis that these are the same pollsters who predicted Remain enjoying a clear victory.

GrubbyHipsterBeard Wed 20-Mar-19 13:01:27

Not undemocratic at all. I think it would have been undemocratic to re run it straight after the first one to try to get a different result but I think thing have clearly moved on, and the first result wasn’t ignored because we’ve spent all of our time and energy trying to sort it out since. Not undemocratic to ask the people if they think it’s working.

Problem is if remain wins, leave will want another referendum in a few years and it’ll be a perpetual cycle. Referendums(a?) are a stupid idea. We are a parliamentary democracy.

Cwtches123 Wed 20-Mar-19 13:01:59

People voted on a concept in 2016, I don't see what is wrong with going back to the country and asking them to vote again now that we know exactly what is evolved.

FaFoutis Wed 20-Mar-19 13:07:52

Democracy cannot cancel out democracy. It's an incredibly stupid argument. But those making it from the top are just using it as a straw man.

AnnPerkins Wed 20-Mar-19 13:25:34

I don't believe a second referendum would be undemocratic.

I don't think I've got the stomach for one, though, unless the polls were saying something like 80/20 for remaining. Society is just too entrenched in its different views now, the campaign would be unspeakable, yet more of the current ugly discourse with added violence. It was bad enough seeing all the 'I Want My Country Back' posters popping up in people's gardens in 2016, as their previously-unacceptable views became legitimised by the Leavers' rhetoric. How much worse would it be this time?

It may be the least democratic solution, but I would prefer to just rip off the Band Aid; revoke Article 50 and deal with the fallout.

mothertruck3r Wed 20-Mar-19 13:31:43

I think we should have a referendum every 3 years just in case people have changed their minds.

Lifecraft Wed 20-Mar-19 13:32:09

It's pointless. A recent survey showed that 25% of people think that a no deal Brexit means we stay in the EU.

The public haven't got any cleverer since 2016. And that's the issue. Most people are far too stupid to vote on such a complex issue, which is why there never should have been a referendum in the first place.

If we are going to have a second referendum, there should be 10 general knowledge questions you have to answer at the polling station, nothing too hard, just basic stuff a reasonably bright person should know, and you don't get to vote unless you get at least 7 right.

MulticolourMophead Wed 20-Mar-19 13:38:11

People voted on a concept in 2016, I don't see what is wrong with going back to the country and asking them to vote again now that we know exactly what is evolved.

This. We were voting on a concept back then. There were no real plans, nothing to show what might happen, or how it would all pan out.

Today it is different. We have a better understanding of what it might mean, that it's not as simple as was made out to be.

So I see nothing against democracy for a second referendum. But the question has to be worded properly, nothing to mislead people.

Gronky Wed 20-Mar-19 13:59:02

If we are going to have a second referendum, there should be 10 general knowledge questions you have to answer at the polling station, nothing too hard, just basic stuff a reasonably bright person should know, and you don't get to vote unless you get at least 7 right.

Are you looking to disproportionately disenfranchise women:
www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jul/11/women-know-less-politics-than-men-worldwide

It's unlikely to make much of a difference to the outcome unless the questions were specifically biased to include ideologically convenient questions:
whatukthinks.org/eu/are-leave-voters-less-knowledgeable-about-the-eu-than-remain-supporters/

Walkingdeadfangirl Wed 20-Mar-19 14:03:03

Second referendum is just not so secret code for staying in the EU. It will just split our country further, so a very very bad idea.

ShartGoblin Wed 20-Mar-19 14:32:24

The way I see it these are the options:

-TM's Deal - It's a bad deal that makes both sides unhappy. People will be angry and it won't work
-No deal - once the realities set in, no-one from either side will be happy and it won't work
-A referendum - Leavers (and a decent chunk of remainers) do view this as trying to trump democracy and stay in the EU
-Revoking article 50 without a referendum - I can see this causing all sorts of angry responses including extremist reactions because the will of the people would be totally ignored
-A better deal - Never going to happen, it's stupid to think that the EU will give us everything we want when they hold all of the cards.
-Delaying Brexit forever and arguing about it indefinitely while nothing else ever gets priority in parliament - my money is on this one

There is no good option here, it's all shit and I despair. We all should whatever side of it we're on.

mothertruck3r Wed 20-Mar-19 14:34:02

If we are going to have a second referendum, there should be 10 general knowledge questions you have to answer at the polling station, nothing too hard, just basic stuff a reasonably bright person should know, and you don't get to vote unless you get at least 7 right.

Only people who appreciate brisk walks on Hampstead Heath should be allowed to vote and only those that shop in Waitrose. It's for the best. The plebs just don't know what's best for them. Some of them have never even tasted hummus!

Hanumantelpiece Wed 20-Mar-19 14:39:29

I feel that there was misinformation on both sides, but unfortunately my experience of leavers have been people that have not fully considered the implications. Many are saying that we should scrap all the EU laws and make our own, but they don't actually know which ones we already have implemented, or why, or what effect they have.
Given that our NHS is already failing, human rights are being eroded (particularly with regard to people with disabilies) and the far/alt-right seem to be on the rise, I feel that we are in a dangerous position.
There's also lots of talk about 'being dicated to by people we didn't elect' but if you see the poor turnout of people we DID elect to any meetings of importance (MPs wages excepted), then I can't see that there is any value in trusting those we have elected.

scaryteacher Wed 20-Mar-19 14:39:43

But I don't live near Hampstead Heath Mother !!

Lifecraft Wed 20-Mar-19 14:43:20

Only people who appreciate brisk walks on Hampstead Heath should be allowed to vote and only those that shop in Waitrose. It's for the best. The plebs just don't know what's best for them. Some of them have never even tasted hummus!

I think if that had been the criteria for voting in the first referendum, we'd be in a damn site better place than we are now.

Although I'd allow those who walk on Primrose Hill as well as Hampstead Heath.

SemperIdem Wed 20-Mar-19 14:44:22

I think it would be extremely democratic to hold a second referendum.

I don’t see an advisory referendum, which was poorly handled from start to finish, being treated as binding as being democratic at all.

SuperLoudPoppingAction Wed 20-Mar-19 14:44:31

Weren't there a few referendums before we joined in the first place?

SuperLoudPoppingAction Wed 20-Mar-19 14:46:27

Wikipedia says we already voted to stay in 1975 so really this would be best of 3.

ShatnersWig Wed 20-Mar-19 14:49:02

Anyone who says a second referendum wouldn't be democratic is an idiot and patently doesn't understand what the word means.

They can say they don't want one or don't like the idea of one, but it's not undemocratic.

What is a nonsense is that MPs have had two identical votes on the same question (and she'd like a third) but that the notion that the People can't have a second vote, which could be the same question (Leave v Remain) or a different question but same subject (Deal v Remain) just isn't on.

Even if the deal (the WA) goes through, we then have other negotiations to conclude.

But we now know more. The best analogy in my opinion is that of buying a house. You like the look of it and put an offer in and a deal if struck. Then you have a survey and you discover what looks good is nowhere near as good. What do you do? You either change the deal or you walk away and stay as you are. But you base the final, second decision on the FACTS not the IDEA.

scaryteacher Wed 20-Mar-19 14:52:45

It would have to be the same question if there were to be a second referendum, or no deal would have to be on there if you wanted the WA and remain on there, as some want neither of those things.

scaryteacher Wed 20-Mar-19 14:53:33

Oh I see Lifecraft No-one outside the M25 gets a say then?

MaMaMaMySharona Wed 20-Mar-19 14:56:35

I am against a second referendum; if leave wins again, then would we have to have a third go, until the desired result was achieved?

I'm actually dumbfounded that this question is still being bandied around. For those who still don't get it - the idea of a second referendum isn't for remainers to get the result they wanted - although of course that is a possible outcome. It is an opportunity for the British people to vote on something that directly affects all of them now that they have more information about the task at hand.

It is widely known that the initial referendum was done almost blind - no one had any idea what was possible and how it would affect our economy. Now we know more. I cannot understand how people don't get this.

bibliomania Wed 20-Mar-19 14:57:16

In 2016 voters bought a pig in a poke. Now that we've had a chance to see the pig up-close, I think it's only fair to ask voters if we're still happy with the bargain.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking Wed 20-Mar-19 14:59:10

I'm somewhat confused, much like the rest of the country, it appears, all suffering with Brexit fatigue.

The referendum question was leave or remain

No details, just stay or go . All this 'it wasnt what we voted for' malarky, well it was, there were no details, one persons vision of leave is not another persons vision. There were no leave details. You got what it said on the tin, only the the tin didnt list any ingredients.

On the other hand, if you voted remain, then you knew what you were getting as you already had it.

For clarity:

The question that appeared on ballot papers in the referendum under the Act was:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

with the responses to the question to be (to be marked with a single (X)):

- Remain a member of the European Union
or
- Leave the European Union

gamerwidow Wed 20-Mar-19 15:00:36

Democracy isn't static, if was we wouldn't have any elections.
The original referendum was corrupt and Leave campaign broke the law.
The public deserve the chance to have another vote with the facts as they are known now rather than a campaign based on a pack of lies.
If it's still the will of the people Leave will win and if it's not still the will of the people Leave will lose.
I honestly couldn't tell you how the result would come out but it is undemocratic to force through a deal so different to what was promised without making sure it is still what the public want.

ChardonnaysPrettySister Wed 20-Mar-19 15:03:14

No.

Brexit cannot be delivered safely, it’s only fair to ask the electorate again.

BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil Wed 20-Mar-19 15:06:46

Move to Ireland- we get to vote until we get the 'right' answer hmmgrin

Gronky Wed 20-Mar-19 15:09:49

BananasAreTheSourceOfEvil smile

Limensoda Wed 20-Mar-19 15:15:55

I think another vote on Brexit is the most democratic next step..
It's been over two years and more time to consider.
How can a fresh vote be undemocratic? We all get a chance to vote, confirm or change our previous vote.

mummmy2017 Wed 20-Mar-19 15:16:28

Do you have an idea how disliked the EU is over all this?.
The only way this could go to another vote is....
Remain...
Leave...

No deal...
WA.....

Oh and just because your friends and family tell you it would be Remain.... Maybe you should thing of all the people who in your views were hoodwinked by the Big Red Bus ... Because. Trapped by the EU...and all the other views, will be so much easier to sell to these people.

Nesssie Wed 20-Mar-19 15:29:14

Yes. It not like the original vote wasn't publicised. Those that wanted to vote, voted.

Littlespaces Wed 20-Mar-19 15:33:16

Brexit isn't going well is it?

Bloody nightmare.

VeronicaDinner Wed 20-Mar-19 15:36:08

Democracy is an ongoing process. People are being born and dying every day.

RosemarysBush Wed 20-Mar-19 15:48:06

Let’s just do the Hokey Cokey.

AutumnCrow Wed 20-Mar-19 15:59:47

I'm watching BBC Parliament live, and it's sobering to see Tory ripping into Tory about being 9 days away from crashing out and five days (possibly less) from Operation Yellowhammer going live.

ShatnersWig Wed 20-Mar-19 16:00:56

People are being born and dying every day

Yes, generally - and of course there are others who don't follow the trend - younger people favour Remain and older people favour Leave.

My grandmother died not long after the referendum and it was the subject of one of our last conversations. She asked how I voted, so I told her (Remain). Then she said "I would have voted Leave but I didn't vote". I asked her why and she replied "Because I don't think people of my age should vote on this - it's about the future and about what YOU want; we've had our time and it would be wrong for those of us who'll be gone in a few years to decide what you lot have to put up with"

UbbesPonytail Wed 20-Mar-19 16:03:06

Betty Boothroyd did a brilliant speech where she said that ‘a democracy not allowed to change its mind ceases to be a democracy at all.’

I’m a remainer but I’ve said all along if we can leave in a way that is not damaging then fine. If we had a second referendum and leave won again I wouldn’t be calling for a third. I’d be thinking great, the government now have a clear idea of what it is the public actually want so how do we do it?

There’s so much that got forgotten in her deal eg channel tunnel. There’s so much people don’t realise eg freedom of movement for EU nationals will be replaced with freedom of movement for countries we secure trade deals with.

All I really want is our government to start acting in the best interests of the public and for the EU to stop being made out to be our enemy regardless of if we’re in or out.

TheRealBoswell Wed 20-Mar-19 16:09:51

According to the 1975 referendum, which asked the question, “Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?” 67.23% voted yes and 32.77% voted no.

That’s a huge difference from 48.1% yes vs 51.9% no. Apparently the 2016 referendum was originally supposed to say, “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?” It was then changed to “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

Anyway, before I go off on a tangent, why did we have a second referendum? And if we can have a second referendum, what’s wrong with a third one? fconfused

worldsbestprocrastinator Wed 20-Mar-19 16:10:51

There are an untold number of things about this whole shitshow that make me despair to be British. One of them is people saying that a second referendum would be undemocratic.
And I get especially angry when I hear MP's say it, and go on about "the will of the people". This is their fucking job, so if they don't understand democracy, we are well and truly fucked (we are, actually, fucked). angry

TheSandman Wed 20-Mar-19 16:13:00

Gronky Wed 20-Mar-19 13:59:02

If we are going to have a second referendum, there should be 10 general knowledge questions you have to answer at the polling station, nothing too hard, just basic stuff a reasonably bright person should know, and you don't get to vote unless you get at least 7 right.

This is an idea of genius!

OnlyFoolsnMothers Wed 20-Mar-19 16:14:16

You can have another referendum once we’ve left, we don’t have a general election before the last winning govnerment has taken power.
As for the original referendum being advisory, the government promised to honour the result and it would be political suicide to go against that.

SlipperyLizard Wed 20-Mar-19 16:15:30

We should never have had a first referendum. But a second can’t possibly be “undemocratic” - we have elections every few years, people can and do change their mind.

strivingtosucceed Wed 20-Mar-19 16:15:33

I slightly understand why people are hesitant to have a 2nd referendum though I do think they're slightly misguided.

The gap between the last two general elections was 2 years, surely a matter such as Brexit should be serious enough for a similar gap. I feel like there should be 3 options: agree with TM's deal, TN should negotiate a better deal or remain. With rules in place for a clear majority to be reached. I think it's preposterous that a gap of 4% is enough to makes such a major decision.

Jenniferyellowcat Wed 20-Mar-19 16:17:07

I see May’s tactic of continuing to seek votes on her Bill after 2 big failures as being more of an issue. MPs are being browbeaten into changing their minds which can not be right

A referendum is the only answer to this shitshow. I have no faith in anyone, except perhaps Yvette Cooper, to talk any sense about anything else.

MacavityTheDentistsCat Wed 20-Mar-19 16:18:30

No, I wouldn't find it a sleight against democracy. We hold general elections at ca. 5 year intervals in an attempt to ensure that the make-up of parliament reflects changing public opinion so why shouldn't we re-test the public's temperature on this issue?

OutInTheCountry Wed 20-Mar-19 16:21:25

In 2016 voters bought a pig in a poke. Now that we've had a chance to see the pig up-close, I think it's only fair to ask voters if we're still happy with the bargain.

This.

I can't understand anyone who thinks it would cause more division. If we don't have a 2nd ref then I will be angry about this whole mess for ever, if we have a 2nd ref and it's still leave then I will still think all leavers are wrong but I'll let it go. If there had been a 48/52 spilt to remain then UKIP and other would already be asking for the next one. If our MPs can't sort it out then it's the only thing left - who wants a deal that we've only accepted because there's literally no other option. It's so stupid I can't bear it.

WeepingWillowWeepingWino Wed 20-Mar-19 16:24:38

I'm not sure you can call the original particularly democratic given how many lies were told, and also that what was meant by Brexit was never actually defined.

Referenda are meant to be advisory. Idiot Cameron decided this one would not be so.

Will of the people? May has no idea what the will of the people is, because the people have no been properly asked.

CarpetWasntRolledOut Wed 20-Mar-19 16:26:51

I think NOT having a second referendum now that people would be voting on facts and reality would be undemocratic.

shaggedthruahedgebackwards Wed 20-Mar-19 16:29:26

I just see a second vote as pointless tbh and strongly suspect result would be fairly similar to first one and even if result is reversed (52% remain, 48% leave), how is that more valid than first vote?

I'm a remainer who absolutely believes there shouldn't have been a referendum in the first place (bloody David Cameron angry), so I'm not in favour of another public vote.

exculpatrix Wed 20-Mar-19 16:33:21

Referenda are meant to be advisory. Idiot Cameron decided this one would not be so.

No, the 2016 referendum was merely advisory. A recent high court ruling even said that the result would be struck down if it weren't merely advisory, given the evidence of malfeasance by the leave side.

The PM and many other MPs have just chosen to treat the result as if it were the inviolable word of a deity.

Iggly Wed 20-Mar-19 16:34:28

I think a second referendum should be a clear question about the nature of the deal.

I’m sure they’ve done this in other countries on eu related matters.

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 16:35:23

Remainer - yes, lets have a second referendum. its not undemocratic we vote every few years on a government anyway. people didn't know what they were voting for the first time, now they do. all the old people who voted leave have now died.

leaver - we voted out, we won you lost now we need to get on with it. Not respecting the vote will lead to mistrust in democracy/politics. we have voted already, to come out and that vote needs to be respected.

and this is the way every single one of these threads goes. Almost 100% of the people saying that they want a second vote, voted remain.

there was a vote. more people voted leave than remain. the government and virtually all of the opposition parties voted Article 50 and said that they would respect this vote. and now some of them have changed their minds and bottled it. If they didn't want to come out the time to say that was when we were voting on Article 50 not now.

If we have another vote the figures will be similarly close. so if remain wins this time by a similar margin, whats to stop all the leavers saying in 2 or 3 years time they want another vote. I bet the remainers calling for a second vote now wont agree with that.

this was supposed to be a once in a lifetime vote. stay in or come out. the government and the opposition both said that they would respect the outcome of the vote and they haven't. both political parties have lied.

I voted out. Out of the Eu, out of the customs union, out of the ECJ out of everything. I didn't ask for a deal. I voted to go.

If we put this to the vote again we will be voting on this for ever and ever.

FWIW I fervently hope that the EU27 come back and deny us an extension because there is no clear plan.

TM is right. the country is sick of it. business is sick of waiting for a decision.

mothertruck3r Wed 20-Mar-19 16:39:12

There should be another referendum because democracy isn't static and if "leave" win again, then there should be another referendum after that because democracy still won't be static. Once "Remain" wins, democracy will have done it's wonderful job of providing the correct result, even if it does take 10 referendums to achieve that.

FriendOrFaux Wed 20-Mar-19 16:40:55

Mothertruck3r
How very true!

OddBoots Wed 20-Mar-19 16:42:06

In light of all the fuck ups both in relation to the referendum itself and since I think it is a huge slight against democracy NOT to have one.

exculpatrix Wed 20-Mar-19 16:42:59

I voted out. Out of the Eu, out of the customs union, out of the ECJ out of everything. I didn't ask for a deal. I voted to go.

Why? Please, I want to know how you thought that was a good idea.

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 16:43:05

absolutely mothertruck3r. every person calling for a second vote is a remainer.

they wont be calling for a second vote if they win the next one 51/49 though.

FleurNancy Wed 20-Mar-19 16:43:46

I actually do and I'm a staunch Remoaner. I just think that a second referendum would make a mockery of the whole democrat

FleurNancy Wed 20-Mar-19 16:45:45

Argh, posted too soon. Whole democratic process. In fact I think the UK is facing a deep constitutional crisis as a result of all this, the current system just isn't fit for purpose. I have no idea what any new system should be just that the existing antiquated system is well past it's your use by date.

winobaglady Wed 20-Mar-19 16:47:19

Given the behaviour we have witnessed from a number of politicians, shouldn't the question be "Who do you trust to take The UK through the next stages, either leave or another vote?"

Poloshot Wed 20-Mar-19 16:47:32

Yes

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 16:47:46

exculpatrix - I still think its a good idea because I do not want an ever closer union with the EU. and that is what is on the cards going forward. I want to come out now before we get to that point. I waited a whole lifetime to have a vote on coming out.

I fundamentally think that "government" should be as close to the people being governed as it can be. I would like to see power and budgets devolved from Westminster to the regions and down further.

DrVonPatak Wed 20-Mar-19 16:48:12

It'd be a restoration of democracy, not the slight of it.

KipperTheFrog Wed 20-Mar-19 16:48:41

I don't think its undemocratic, as people are allowed to change their minds. I know people who voted remain and now want to leave, and people who voted leave who now want to remain. We can never go back to how things were before the 2016 referendum.
UK politics is broken no matter what happens, as this whole mess has well and truly shown our politicians to be only out for themselves, not acting in the best interests of the country.
If Teresa may can have more than 1 vote on her deal, why cant the public have more than one say?

Bluntness100 Wed 20-Mar-19 16:50:32

I don't wish one, as I don't think we should have been asked the first time, and don't think thr British public understand the implications enough to make a decision on it.

However on a purely is it democratic, then it's more democratic to have one than not, because things have moved on substantially and now we have more information to hand.

However as said, I think it's a terrible idea, as the British public do not understand it enough to make this critical decision. We should never have been asked in thr first place. So asking again is just compounding the error.

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 16:50:51

what would be a restoration of democracy is all those politicians who voted for Article 50 keeping to their original decision and taking the country out.

DrVonPatak - if there is another vote and its to come out again, will you respect that? why would you expect a leaver to respect the outcome of the second vote if a remainer wouldn't respect the outcome of the first vote?

Iggly Wed 20-Mar-19 16:51:37

I voted out. Out of the Eu, out of the customs union, out of the ECJ out of everything. I didn't ask for a deal. I voted to go

We still need a trading relationship with the EU - that’s the basis for a future deal.

Surely people realise that 🤦🏻‍♀️

Al2O3 Wed 20-Mar-19 16:51:47

Yes.

But leaving without a deal is also anti-democratic. Farage, Boris and Rees-Mogg promised us a deal if we voted to leave. The EU would apparently be bent over backwards they assured us.

What goes around comes around.

A second referendum is the default to no deal.

Iggly Wed 20-Mar-19 16:53:30

And, the last time I checked, the government have followed democracy.

They’re trying to negotiate the terms of a future relationship with the EU and how we exit the current situation. Democracy has been maintained (sort of, given the dubious Leave campaign).

You cannot just walk away - and if anyone thinks we can - well they need a serious education about how the EU works.

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 16:54:28

Bluntness100 - so if the great unwashed don't know enough about it are you seriously suggesting that the shower of shit 650 MP's know more than we do?

I have worked on EU matters for over 15 years. I know a lot about it and was only in Brussels discussing policy issues last month. Don't tar all of us with the "you didn't know what you were voting for" brush. because I certainly did thank you.

Weebitawks Wed 20-Mar-19 16:54:30

Maybe I'd think the vote should be respected more if vote leave wasn't found guilty of electoral fraud.

People had no fucking clue what they voted for, clearly. I'm sure if people knew what a shit show the Tories would make of things, more would of voted remain. We should absolutely have a vote on the final deal with an option to just remain.

exculpatrix Wed 20-Mar-19 16:55:25

I fundamentally think that "government" should be as close to the people being governed as it can be. I would like to see power and budgets devolved from Westminster to the regions and down further.

An interesting idea, but where do we stop? Do we devolve down to individual city states? Smaller? If so, how do we tackle global scale problems, such as climate change, terrorism, human trafficking, illegal wildlife trading, etc?

There's been a trend over the past few centuries towards increased globalisation, probably driven by greater ease of travel and communication. I'm not going to claim that that's innately better than localism, of course, but I'm interested in how a locally focused society tackles modern global issues.

Weebitawks Wed 20-Mar-19 16:55:32

mummymeister so you're happy with the way things are going ?

MeredithGrey1 Wed 20-Mar-19 16:55:37

If we have another vote the figures will be similarly close. so if remain wins this time by a similar margin, whats to stop all the leavers saying in 2 or 3 years time they want another vote. I bet the remainers calling for a second vote now wont agree with that.

But if we remain, its unlikely that in a couple of years time we'll suddenly have a lot more information about what exactly remaining looks like so a third vote wouldn't make sense. Similarly if people vote to take May's deal, then there would be no reasonable argument to vote again on that, because its already negotiated and isn't going to change massively after any vote for it.
Obviously if we remained and then later on there were massive changes to what being in the EU looked like (like being forced to join the Euro for example) then I think it would make sense to revisit it. Its just common sense to reconsider any situation, when that situation changes. It makes no sense to make a decision, and then stick to it regardless.

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 16:56:18

We still need a trading relationship with the EU - that’s the basis for a future deal

yes we do Iggly. and that is something that we negotiate once we come out. you are right it is a "future deal" not a deal for now. we come out first. we negotiate after. Not just with the EU but with everyone else.

mummymeister Wed 20-Mar-19 17:02:27

mummymeister so you're happy with the way things are going ?

No I am not. as I have said on this thread and a million others. I don't want a deal - May's deal or anyone elses.

If politicians didn't want Brexit then they should never have voted for Article 50. but they did.

You might not agree with me. that's fine. I don't agree with remain. I have never agreed with remain. I never will.

Meredith - that's just not going to happen and all the remainers know it.

please remainers be realistic. you are the only ones calling for a recount. And you can dress it up in any way you want about ignorant voters, dead voters, democracy or anything else that you want to say but at the end of the day, you have decided not to respect the outcome of a democratic vote because it didn't go the way you wanted it to. Now that is undemocratic. Not respecting the outcome of vote where your side didn't win.

Had remainers won, these threads would be full of brexiteers saying exactly what remoaners are saying now and vice versa.

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