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To be angry and distressed at the amount of harassment my fourteen year old daughter faces?

(288 Posts)
Saggingninja Sun 17-Mar-19 11:37:35

A small sample. She's been harassed on a bus by a man in his thirties when she was in her school uniform. Nobody intervened. She was followed slowly down a street by a man in a car, but when she turned to take a photo of his licence plate, he drove off. She was asked for a 'date' by a man who was 'in his fifties'. When she pointed out she was only fourteen he smiled and said 'he didn't mind.' And yesterday on the train with some friends, she noticed this man filming them. When she turned to face him, he stopped and moved away.

My daughter is confident and I've told her not to be afraid of telling anyone harassing her to fuck off or to loudly remind them that she's underage. I put up with so much crap when I was a teenager out of fear of being rude. But I'm so angry and distressed that this happens so often. Nothing has changed has it?

formerbabe Sun 17-Mar-19 11:40:18

Just disgusting....yanbu.

MangoBananaSleep Sun 17-Mar-19 11:48:29

This is outrageous. We all need to speak up against these creatures who think this is acceptable.

It sounds like you’ve done a good job teaching your daughter to protect herself though OP.

FissionChip5 Sun 17-Mar-19 11:52:17

YANBU, was mentioning to DH the other day about the amount of grown men who would leer and make comments as soon as I hit 14.

It’s absolutely disgusting.

IM0GEN Sun 17-Mar-19 11:53:51

Yes. My 17 year old DD and her friends were harassed by a group of men in their 30s. They were shouting at her friend who has self harm scars on her thighs and saying “ oh that’s a great place to cut yourself “.

The girls complained to a manager who spoke to the men and then told the girls that the men were “ just trying to be supportive”.

They got more support from a male cleaner who overheard and said “these guys are a load of junkies who should be kicked out “. At least the cleaner acknowledge that it was the men who were wrong and not them for objecting.

It’s put them off going back.

ScarlettDarling Sun 17-Mar-19 11:54:17

It is vile. My dd has just turned 12 and I dread this happening to her in a couple of years. I remember being asked out on a bus by a man in his 30s when I was still a teenager, being flashed at when out in town with friends, being groped in pubs when I got a bit older. It sounds like nothing has changed. Who are these men who think is acceptable behaviour? It makes my blood boil.

CarolDanvers Sun 17-Mar-19 11:55:18

My daughter is 12 and already men stare at her even when she’s with me. I have my Medusa face and I make sure they know I see them and they have always looked away up till now when they see me glare, but it makes me furious.

YouTheCat Sun 17-Mar-19 11:55:49

My dd has no qualms about telling people to fuck off if they're harassing her. Now she's a bit older she gives off a 'don't mess with me' kind of aura and doesn't get much hassle at all.

It's shit that we should have to tell our children to tell people making unwanted advances to fuck off though because it just shouldn't happen.

ItchySeveredFoot Sun 17-Mar-19 11:58:57

God why are some men so fucking disgusting? My dd's are both under 5 but I'm dreading anything like this.

Barrenfieldoffucks Sun 17-Mar-19 12:00:15

Yup, it's gross.

We were on holiday recently and my 8 yr old was wearing a bikini. It wasn't a small skimpy one (although that shouldn't matter) but one of those crop top type ones.

There was one particular chap who followed her very blatantly with his eyes wherever she went by the pool. It made me very uncomfortable.

I remember all sorts of hideousness as a teen, it never really occurred to me how wrong it was.

JohnMcCainsDeathStare Sun 17-Mar-19 12:02:12

It boils my pics and I'm still angry about it in that I was supposed to take it as a compliment or that I was somehow mad for not doing so. That and how it was indulged almost at school. But your daughter has her head screwed on she must keep on recording ans logging and being that squeaky wheel.
And if those in authority get annoyed at her she can remind them their anger is misdirected at her, it should be at the sex pests. And she has a mother who cares at her back too.

Usingmyindoorvoice Sun 17-Mar-19 12:10:25

YANBU at all.
I actually think it’s got worse over the years. I don’t recall the same level of street harassment in the 70s and 80s that my dds have experienced in the last decade,
My youngest dd in particular had the misfortune to become large of nork by the time she was barely 13, and grown men would hassle her, even though she was clearly a child. In school uniform.
Vile, vile, vile.

katseyes7 Sun 17-Mar-19 12:12:50

My ex's eldest daughter is a stunningly attractive girl. On occasions he's been out in public with her and men have actually made comments to her. When she's with her dad, who is a very big man. And she was 14-15 at the time. lt's disgusting.

lottiegarbanzo Sun 17-Mar-19 12:13:10

Horrible. But I don't really think 'underage' is the thing to focus on in comments back - that sort of behaviour isn't ok if you're 'of age' either.

The point is it is unwanted, unpleasant, intrusive attention, at any age.

No girl is suddenly going to become interested in these sleazy arse-wipes when she turns 18. The term 'underage' carries an implication that she would become fair game at that age.

Yes, they are sexually harrassing a child and the consequences for them should and could be worse than for doing the same thing to an adult. But the unacceptability of sexual harrassment would seem to me to be the main point to make.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:16:28

This makes me so angry.

Why doesn't it change.

It was like this in the 80s too.

As a society have we not stamped this out? Generally I think its because its not seen as a problem and if it is then the blame seems to go on the girl? I mean all the usual stuff.

But it's a fucking blight on our lives when we're young isn't it. Peoe say why are girls self conscious? Why lack confidence etc... Maybe because they get treated like this when they're out in public and no one gives a fuck?

bobstersmum Sun 17-Mar-19 12:16:34

It is awful. From being about 12 I had unwanted attention from grown men. I didn't look older and wasnt outgoing or overly confident, didn't wear make up. Makes me feel utterly sick now. There are several men that I could report now if I knew where they were.

FizzyGreenWater Sun 17-Mar-19 12:16:35

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

malificent7 Sun 17-Mar-19 12:16:59

Underage is an issue though...it's paedophilia. Although i do agree that no woman should face this crap.

lottiegarbanzo Sun 17-Mar-19 12:20:46

Yes, the underage aspect has different implications for the man.

For the girl / woman though, this stuff is never acceptable.

I think it's really the word 'underage' I'm not comfortable with, because it implies 'underage = off-limits, of age = fair game'. Whereas saying 'you are sexually harrassing a child' is factual, without that implication.

FiddlesticksAkimbo Sun 17-Mar-19 12:21:32

"Men are fucking foul."
You might want to reconsider that comment, Fizzy

Thatsalovelycuppatea Sun 17-Mar-19 12:22:59

That's disgusting. Have you informed the school of this? I seriously wonder what causes men to behave like such dicks.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:23:27

There is a difference pre/post puberty.

As soon as a girl starts to get breasts, irrespective of age, there seems to be a shift to, she's old enough, and when stuff happens, a lack of sympathy from public. Girls past puberty are often seen as 'knowing'. Provocative. She looked older! She had her school skirt rolled up!

I think this is to protect men as loads of them fancy girls from this age.

Pre puberty is seen as a serious issue, defunitely terrible. Not the child's fault (usually), men who act are the lowest of the low etc

puppymouse Sun 17-Mar-19 12:23:33

It's vile. And relentless. I feel more sheltered from it now as a middle aged woman but it still happens. Often when you'd least expect it. I remember how constant it was early to mid teens. I was well developed for my age which often made things worse.

Remember my godmother's creepy husband age 50 or whatever catching my foot under the dinner table and leering "are you playing footsie with me?" I was 12.

Broader than teens, this caught my attention. Not sure what's worse the film or the comments (I.e. men denying it happens and then mansplaining what we should be doing to stop it.)
https://www.facebook.com/142149825944/posts/10156298287645945?sfns=mo

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 17-Mar-19 12:24:08

Horrendous. I feel just as sick reading that as I did when it used to happen to me - whilst wearing school uniform - on my way to school.

Why do some men feel so entitled to treat girls/women this way? It's vile, they're vile.

lottiegarbanzo Sun 17-Mar-19 12:24:19

The underage / of age thing is a bit like when creeps use the 'sweet 16 and never been kissed' line and similar, in a 'she's sexually available now, sleazy wink' way. Creepy as fuck and all about being legitimately 'available'.

StephsCaddy Sun 17-Mar-19 12:24:48

Was the same for me when I was that age (I’m mid 40s now)
It’s upsetting that it is still happening. We seem to have made absolutely no progress in this area.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 17-Mar-19 12:25:28

MeAgain, what do you mean, "Not the child's fault (usually)"?

Please explain because to me, it's NEVER the child's fault.

justilou1 Sun 17-Mar-19 12:26:37

My 14 year old is petite, blonde and unfortunately has big boobs. She deliberately dressed like the queen mum because she loathes the unwanted male gaze from grubs like this. She isn’t remotely emotionally ready for the comments or feelings elicited from them.

Pinkbells Sun 17-Mar-19 12:26:47

You need to phone the police! The one who said he 'didn't mind' she was 15 was a paedophile!

bobstersmum Sun 17-Mar-19 12:27:53

@meagainagain you sound fucked up.

GerryblewuptheER Sun 17-Mar-19 12:27:55

Yanbu

I've caught people looking at my 12 yr old dd before.

Fucking creeps they dont even try and hide it.

AnyFucker Sun 17-Mar-19 12:28:19

men are fucking foul
You might want to reconsider that comment, Fizzy

Why ?

Grace212 Sun 17-Mar-19 12:29:28

I'm with Fizzy

OP when I was your DD age I was reluctant to tell my parents anything that happened because I feared they'd give me less freedom.

one of the most useful things I ever heard was a teacher saying that girls should see all men as potential rapists - now I suppose she'd say Schrodinger's Rapist.

for some reason this gave me the confidence to tell these men to fuck off. It's the only language they understand. They mostly back off when they see the female "object" they've targeted isn't just going to take it.

ginghamstarfish Sun 17-Mar-19 12:31:15

Very sad. I remember this happening to me as a teenager - being groped, flashed at several times, harrassed, right through to attempted rape (I scratched his face so hard I had his flesh under my nails when I got home, and no sadly I did not report it). A shame that we still have to teach ALL girls - all children in fact - that some men are disgusting bastards and they must be wary. I would encourage them to shout, scream, run to nearest house and knock, phone police, whatever it takes. By coincidence just this morning I looked at my news feed and it was just one after another, 'man guilty of rape ..../man attacked child/ 'transwomen' attacked child in toilets' ..... ad nauseam. FFS men!

kalinkafoxtrot45 Sun 17-Mar-19 12:31:47

I was large of nork at age 12 and that’s when it started. I remember being flashed at on a train at the age of 15, I made a big fuss about it and the man’s friends gave him a good walloping.

Why are so many men so revolting? Can’t they get their kicks another way? They need to be called out on it, every single time, and good men need to step up and say it’s wrong.

fairislecable Sun 17-Mar-19 12:31:53

It is disgusting but people can be supportive.

When in a crowd around a market stall a middle aged man kept pressing up against me, I glared, I moved and in the end said very loudly “ will you please step back”. The stall holder saw what was happening and shouted very loudly “fuck off you pervert”. The crowd took up the call and as he ran off through the market everyone was shouting pervert at him.

I think the main thing is to call them out in a very polite way but loud enough so that other people know what is going on.

BlackCatSleeping Sun 17-Mar-19 12:34:36

It is disgusting but people can be supportive.

It's a shame that more people aren't supportive though. Still so many people make excuses for these creeps

Drogosnextwife Sun 17-Mar-19 12:34:50

Yup I remember things like this happening when I was young. I was tall and did look a bit older than I was but not old enough that a grown man would mistake me for an adult. It is disgusting and at the time I didn't think anything of it, just thought that's the way things were, which is really sad. Never told my parents because I was a bit embarrassed tbh. Only as an adult have I actually realised how wrong it was.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:39:11

"Pre puberty is seen as a serious issue, defunitely terrible. Not the child's fault (usually), men who act are the lowest of the low etc"

Loads of court cases where there has been commentary around how even very young victims were "asking for it". I hope this has got less as people have got so angry about it.

Maybe I wrote it not so well.

I meant in the eyes of society anything sexual towards pre pubescent children is pretty much seen as wrong (some judges comments over the years aside).

But for girls over puberty this shifts - they are seen as old before their years etc. The recent case where a man (27 I think) went to prison for having sexual contact with 12yo on here - mostly women- there were loads of women saying she knew what she was doing, he was real victim, he should be released her punished by the legal system etc. Scratch the surface and the knee jerk urge to protect adult men who are interested in girls is extremely strong.

chickensaresafehere Sun 17-Mar-19 12:40:13

Good luck to the men who are inappropriate to my dd (19) .
She's a feisty one. And has given me many examples of where she has challenged this sort of behaviour.
Just the other week her & a friend were out in a affluent town for the night & were verbally attacked by a group of men about their appearance,both her & her friend stood up & told them exactly what they thought of them & then went & told the doormen (who weren't interested hmm)
It's sad that we have to raise our daughters to not put up with this shit & I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Saggingninja Sun 17-Mar-19 12:40:43

Pinkbells I know he was a paedophile. But I wasn't there and when I asked my daughter to describe him, she couldn't. And of course when I AM there, these creeps tend to slink back under their rock.

It just enrages me that harassment of young girls seems to have gotten worse not better.

TheFairyCaravan Sun 17-Mar-19 12:40:44

* Men are fucking foul.*

I think you mean some men are fucking foul. DS1 has picked men up and physically removed them when they have been harassing his female friends while they've been out. He did it to one of his seniors who threatened to discipline him. The senior was the one who was disciplined in the end.

OpalIridescence Sun 17-Mar-19 12:41:25

I can't see why Fizzy has to reconsider anything. Maybe the men should reconsider their predatory attitudes?

This happened to me all the time, men in street, on trains, by male teachers etc. We were so used to it, was just normal.

Intohellbutstayingstrong Sun 17-Mar-19 12:43:05

I shouted loudly at one man who was staring at my then 12 year old daughter in a very busy John Lewis "Do you enjoy leering at young girls'
Fucking cunt.
So many disgusting men walking the streets. They make me feel physically sick,.

IncrediblySadToo Sun 17-Mar-19 12:43:50

You need to phone the police! The one who said he 'didn't mind' she was 15 was a paedophile!

No, he is a lot of things, but not a paedophile. Unless, of course, in the highly unlikely situation that the 15 year old hadn’t yet hit puberty.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 17-Mar-19 12:44:06

MeAgain, well no, not really. Sexually harassing a girl or woman is wrong. When that person is a girl then the harassing man is a paedophile. That's the only difference in my book.

Men are not entitled to sexually harass girls or women. There is no excuse and none that would be valid. End of story.

Your posts make me a bit queasy to be honest, your first one made me wonder if you were a harassing man - or a woman with a paedophile for a husband.

O4FS Sun 17-Mar-19 12:45:36

Those men who are fucking foul shame the rest of those that aren’t. And those that aren’t need to stand up and take responsibility for those that are.

Male foulness is always a woman’s (and girls) problem. It’s fucking outrageous and it’s about time men stood up for their sex and called it out.

This shit starts from puberty and no female escapes it. It makes me furious, and that my daughters have to deal with it makes me incredibly angry. I just hope I have don’t enough so they don’t smile weakly and look away. I hope they can be forthrigh

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:45:57

I take that "reconsider your comment" thing to mean really we shouldn't talk about this at all.

Because, in reality, it's way way way too many men, so many that when you're out and young you never know when or where something is going to happen, and it is ALWAYS a man that does it.

On a thread like this to read it and think WOW that is so out of order! This woman has not been careful to state that NAMALT! What a total bastard! She needs to retract.

It's not right.

I was a teen girl once and got loads of shit and I thought, wow, men are foul. We all did. Because so many of them were.

Policing how women and girls talk about the sexual harrassment & worse that we get from age 12ish is a dick move TBH.

O4FS Sun 17-Mar-19 12:45:59

Forthright with their ‘fuck off’s.

Orangecookie Sun 17-Mar-19 12:47:24

I wonder about escalating this. I know this depends on your daughter, and how she feels, but anything in public transport to be reported immediately to nearest official, bus driver etc. Calm, factual. Maybe your daughter could do with a session with an agency, I’m not sure about women’s aid or nspcc could maybe advise, to go through again what her repsonse could be, how to get help, what is the best thing to do.

Or you follow up by writing to train company and bus company citing incidents. It really helps to keep this issue in the eye of organisations who have a duty to help.

Especially being videod or photographed.

Sounds like she’s got her head well screwed on though.

Oldraver Sun 17-Mar-19 12:47:54

Another one who had a large chest quite early on and it seemed to be the green light for leery comments.

From the old family friend leering at me in front of my parenst and commenting..my you've grown into a big girl, to the next door neighbour asking me to have sex with him...when I was 12/13.

zenasfuck Sun 17-Mar-19 12:48:05

This affected my teenage years greatly. At 12 years old I had waist length blonde hair and 30F boobs
I got whistles and shouted at every day by grown men

We had builders in school who asked me out

I went out to a show with my mum and her friend and a man in his 30's was very inappropriate, he was with his girlfriend who attacked me because of it

All of this made me cut my hair short, dye it dark and I only ever wore minimiser bras and high neck tops to try and disguise myself

But then at 15 I was angry and took great pleasure in calling these pathetic perverts out. One neighbour exposed himself to me one day as I walked home from school - I marched across the road and banged on his door and shouted for all to hear - he was arrested and charged

Teach your girls to challenge these perverts, it is so sad that this is still happening to young girls.

MaybeitsMaybelline Sun 17-Mar-19 12:48:15

My DS’s 20 year old girlfriend touched up by an older man in a bar when she was in a mixed group of ten. When DS challenged him he denied it and got aggressive before ending up in a fight with DS and throwing the girlfriend on the floor. DS and the other man were arrested and DS spent the night in a cell. After further viewing the CCTV DS was released and no charges will be brought against him. The police have put the case to the CPS for sexual assault by the other bloke based on cctv footage.

The other bloke it turned out is 57 years old with grown up sons. He is 15 years older than DSs girlfriends dad and was on a Christmas piss up with his mates of the same age.

DS spent Christmas in hospital due to the beating up he got and had to have an operation.

This is what happens when you stand up for women being abused.

I doubt the CPS will consider it in the public’s interest to charge the dirty old bastard. It would also be really bad if he had been a younger bloke but for ab57 year old to think it’s ok to touch up a twenty year old just made me puke.

JaneEyre07 Sun 17-Mar-19 12:49:08

I've had men leering at my then 13 and 15 year old DDs. I have perfected the death stare over the years, but it made me feel physically sick. They weren't even discreet, and one guy must have been well into his 50s.

It makes me so angry that instant access to porn has made these perverts think that every teenage girl is "up for it".

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:49:27

I am so glad to read of all the girls telling men to fuck off etc

Please remember though that sometimes they don't back off and again it's hard to tell which is which

I was "fiesty" grin and had stuff thrown at me, was spat at, followed by cars, followed on foot by a man shouting, probably more, because I didn't react how they would have wanted.

Not saying to no say fuck off or whatever but just, it doesn't always work out so well.

In this situation I always felt v powerless becasue I couldn't actually make them do anything, what with me being a slightly built girl and them being an adult man.

It's shit. Why does society expect 7 stone 5' girls to be able to "handle" sexually aggressive men twice their size?

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:50:30

JaneEyre they thought that in the 80s.

The porn is produced to mens tastes.

In our day we had 16yo sam fox on page 3 and men openly ogling her on the bus with schoolgirls sitting all around.

Ellenborough Sun 17-Mar-19 12:52:00

I put up with so much crap when I was a teenager out of fear of being rude.

Most of us over a certain age did. I am glad your DD is growing up to be assertive, to know when a man is being inappropriate and to call him out on it publicly. Well done her.

Things seemed to get better for a decade or two, but now they seem to be getting worse again.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:53:10

Lying - I think you are totally misunderstadning my posts, maybe I am not expressing myself well.

Sadiesnakes Sun 17-Mar-19 12:53:19

Men ARE fucking foul, anyone who disagrees are usually male, or haven't been unfortunate enough to experience sexual harassment unluckily from the age of 10 up for me, and my daughters experienced it from 12 onwards. Countless times. A huge portion of men.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Sun 17-Mar-19 12:53:55

If I am, MeAgain, then I apologise to you.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:53:55

" It’s fucking outrageous and it’s about time men stood up for their sex and called it out. "

They aren't interested - if they were, it would already have happened.

LarryGreysonsDoor Sun 17-Mar-19 12:55:58

Yes yes yes, it's not all men, but it is ALL women.

And while it continues to be all women, I will continue to complain about men.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 12:56:06

Sadie

the ones who say that it's out of line on a thread like this to say sometihng like all men are foul

you can bet they are the sort to say
Well,
Are you sure you didn't mishear what he said?
I don't think he meant it like that.
He was only trying to be friendly!
I expect he'd be upset if he knew that he had scared you, I'm sure he didn't mean to do that
Some men are clumsy with words, he was just being friendly!
Well, you did know that groups of blokes hangs around there, why didn't you walk another way

etc etc

Ellenborough Sun 17-Mar-19 12:59:33

Why do some men feel so entitled to treat girls/women this way?

Because no-one teaches them not to, including their mothers. Unfortunately some people see it as an inevitable part of having a penis. They just can't help themselves, poor things. There is a horrible sort of entitlement to it. Even if they know they don't stand a chance, or intend to take it further, especially if they are grown men and the girl is a teenager, there still seems to be a perverse pleasure in making her feel intimidated and embarrassed and when she complains she's told she should be flattered and it's all in good natured fun. hmm

I have no doubt that some would take it further though, if they thought they could get away with it.

bigKiteFlying Sun 17-Mar-19 13:00:44

YANBU

It's a huge worry for me with a 13 year old DD.

I had large breast in primary - and that's when it started for me and yes I very much felt blamed for unwanted attention.

DD has thankfully hit puberty later than me - so she's a little older and the culture round here is more friendly and less agressive more polite than where I grew up - but it's still going to be an issue for her at some point.

MargeryB Sun 17-Mar-19 13:01:57

It is disgusting. I'm confident my ds wouldn't do it, I've talked to him in detail about how to treat people with respect, with examples (he is a young teen). It's only a very small minority of my friends who have had this conversation with their sons. All the men who do this have parents and there is too much 'boys will be boys' attitude and facilitating entitled behaviour from males from a young age. Society's general sexism (females in caring professions/sahp/wifework and males in powerful jobs) that is still very prevelent in many boy's lives from a young age doesn't help.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 13:04:21

whoops

of course PP didn't say all men are foul - had NAMALT in my head when I wrote it!

She said men are foul

Which in the context of this thread is true

Men as a group, when you are a girl or young woman, are foul. It is not just the odd one or 2, it is loads. Every other bloke on the high street gave men the eyeball once over my body from when I was about 12. This is when a lot of issues start for girls - when how we are treated changes, from little kids to sex objects. And we notice, of course we do. And it effects us in different ways, some get angry, some think well it's going to happen and there's nothing I can do so I'll pretend it's fine, some just want to hide away. All the issues around MHPs with girls, and with suddenly losing confidence at puberty (while boys continues on upwards trajectory apparently) - why is it never questioned how much of it is down to the fact that we can't even walk down the fuckign street without having to beon alter that some random is going to be weird at us, or worse.

It's rubbish.

Dinosauratemydaffodils Sun 17-Mar-19 13:05:42

My dm refused to buy me a new brownie uniform in my last six months as a Brownie. I'd shot up and the dress was mini in the extreme. We were abroad as df was in the military and I still remember the humiliation of standing in a base coffee shop with my back to a bunch of squaddies listening to them talking about my legs and what I could be made to do with them. Not one single adult said anything in my defense.

Df's squadron referred to me as jailbait and Lolita. No one raised an eyebrow or complained. Every Christmas at the squadron party "Santa" (always a pilot because instead of arriving in a sleigh, they'd land their plane) always wanted me to sit on his knee.

As a teenager, the guy trying to sell my dm a vacuum of some sort suggested something indecent in the garage.

I could go on and on.

UnspiritualHome Sun 17-Mar-19 13:07:33

If the man filming your daughter is regularly on the same train, I would suggest telling the police. It sounds as if he may be deliberately travelling at the time when teenagers are going home from school.

A friend who works in a school was telling my about a child who was fostered and had to travel some way from her foster parents' home. They couldn't understand why she was always hanging around in the library at the end of the day given that she wasn't a reader and seemed essentially to be wasting time. They found out that it was because she didn't want to go home at her normal time because there was always a group of men hanging around the station waiting for schoolgirls and propositioning them. The school alerted the police who, happily, put a lot of resources into sorting it out and things have much improved - but no-one is under any illusions that the men won't be back.

MiniEggAddiction Sun 17-Mar-19 13:08:58

Bloody hell I have teenage nieces and they don't get subjected to anything near as bad as that (they do complain aboutvthe odd beep or comment which is bad enough). That sounds awful for your DD.

Ellenborough Sun 17-Mar-19 13:10:30

" It’s fucking outrageous and it’s about time men stood up for their sex and called it out. "

They aren't interested - if they were, it would already have happened.

Hmmm.....Interesting.

That reminds of a thread the other day where a Muslim was saying 'why do white people hold all Muslims accountable for Islamic terror and why should we have to apologise for them? We are constantly told that we, as Muslims, don't do enough to make our feelings clear on the matter and that we should collectively make a stand against extremists to prove that we don't secretly share their ideology.' Or words to that effect.

Same argument from where I'm sitting. Most men don't do this and most men will call it out when they see it, I believe.

Pinkbells Sun 17-Mar-19 13:11:17

Incredibly
No, he is a lot of things, but not a paedophile. Unless, of course, in the highly unlikely situation that the 15 year old hadn’t yet hit puberty.
I think the definition of a paedophile is simply someone sexually attracted to children. 15 is still a child, and he was told that, so it wasn't a question of 'sorry, I thought you were older'. This is probably how these disgusting people explain away their own behaviour. It is wrong!

bigKiteFlying Sun 17-Mar-19 13:11:48

It is not just the odd one or 2, it is loads.

yep - and that's what's so shocking it was a frequent experience for me and yet the narrative is it's just on or two bad apples and whenever I''ve tried to counter that suddenly I'm vain hmm and seeing things which aren't there or taking comments the wrong way hmm.

Wearywithteens Sun 17-Mar-19 13:20:44

Sadly, it has become a way of life for my attractive 17 year old. We try and chaperone everywhere but it’s not always possible as she takes a school bus to an inner city school. Whenever a car slows, beeps, or men catcall she immediately fears being raped. She has nice male friends who protect her, and the men in our family are lovely but because of these experiences she believes ‘all men are trash’ and ‘never wants a boyfriend’.

Tavannach Sun 17-Mar-19 13:23:02

A train is not a public place (you have to pay to get on) so report this incident to the train company tomorrow. There may well be CCTV. Consider an official complaint. Your daughter is underage. Also report it to the police. What's he doing with the film?

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 13:24:36

"most men will call it out when they see it, I believe."

You believe wrong.

Most men don't (I've never had one intervene or say anything) and most women won't either.

Society as a whole says oh yes that's bad but when faced with an actual example it's generally left with the girl to handle.

This systemic issue at the extreme end leaves you with rochdale etc where the girls were seen by the authorities as active participants, treated more like they were adults choosing / driving the stuff, and not seen as the children they were.

Girls over puberty are very often painted as sexually knowing and the men who approach them etc as poor bamboozled men drawn in by a pretty face.

Sadiesnakes Sun 17-Mar-19 13:25:06

MeAgain, Yes, Ive heard all the excuses, and I'm sure we'll hear them all again now when the NAMALT brigade come along.
I can say Men are Foul because of the men I've met throughout my life, the large percentage of them, in some form or other, have a lack of respect for women. Ranging from sexual abuse to sexual objectification, in some form or other.
No one can tell me otherwise.

applesarerroundandshiny Sun 17-Mar-19 13:25:43

Totally out of order. My DS was telling me that his female friend (17) gets harassed by men of all ages even when she's out with him. It sounded quite sinister as well - there would be a certain amount of cat calls and whistling in some situations when I was young but not the explicit comments and literally being grabbed that she has to put up with.

FizzyGreenWater Sun 17-Mar-19 13:27:27

Oh sorry only just back to this.

No, I'm happy with my comment - thanks to all who responded to it smile

Sadiesnakes Sun 17-Mar-19 13:29:20

*"most men will call it out when they see it, I believe."

You believe wrong.*

This. There are the men that do it, and then the most men that turn a blind eye to it. This behaviour only ever affects girls and women.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 13:29:31

Re-reading this comment:

"" It’s fucking outrageous and it’s about time men stood up for their sex and called it out. "

They aren't interested - if they were, it would already have happened.

Hmmm.....Interesting.

That reminds of a thread the other day where a Muslim was saying 'why do white people hold all Muslims accountable for Islamic terror and why should we have to apologise for them? We are constantly told that we, as Muslims, don't do enough to make our feelings clear on the matter and that we should collectively make a stand against extremists to prove that we don't secretly share their ideology.' Or words to that effect.

Same argument from where I'm sitting. Most men don't do this and most men will call it out when they see it, I believe."

Is equivalence REALLY being drawn between

Expecting people in the UK who are muslim to take responsibility for mass murder on the other side of the world

and

Wanting men in general to do something when they see girls being hassled in public eg just saying "Don't so that mate she doesn't like it" or even just a glare to say "I have seen what you are doing" would be enough to make most of them stop.

(Women could do this too but they dont' tend to either).

Yes that is TOTALLY the same thing.

TwllBach Sun 17-Mar-19 13:32:54

I'm 31 and had this all the time growing up. I had men pull over their cars at bus stops to ask me out, I had a man sit next to me on the last bus home and try and kiss me, I had catcalls, beeping horns, lewd comments, the lot. It ended up with me being raped by a taxi driver at 16 and I put a fuckload of weight on very rapidly after that.

I despair that, should I have a daughter, she would be experiencing the very same things and it fills me with terror that my lovely little boy might one day end up in a crowd of men that do similar.

Thedarklady Sun 17-Mar-19 13:32:58

The catcalling and abuse suffered by girls and young people is heartbreaking. Boys and men think they can say or do anything to them. I remember and hear about so many incidents. Things I've forgotten about have come back to me years later. I always step in if I think a girl is in trouble.

mrsmuddlepies Sun 17-Mar-19 13:34:02

I agree with you Ellenborough

Saggingninja Sun 17-Mar-19 13:38:26

Twll I'm really sorry to hear that.

TheDarkLady I'm glad you step in. One of the most depressing aspects of this is how cowardly bystanders can be. I'm not asking people to physically step in but the stall holder who stuck up for a poster in a market - if only more people would just shout or say something.

Parker231 Sun 17-Mar-19 13:39:49

My DD has had similar problems and at 20 and now at Uni, still does. During her A levels she did a self defence course which helped her feel in control (and she wouldn’t be afraid to use her skills) and whenever anyone hassles her she takes their photos and tells them she is notifying the police (although I’m not sure she actually does).

ClaireElizabethBeuchampFraser Sun 17-Mar-19 13:42:40

I remember age 11, going out shopping with my parents. I was wearing a black and white check cotton dress which was fitted and stopped an inch or two above the knee. It was in style. I am 5’10 now and was still tall then, with legs up to my armpits and big boobs that appeared overnight on my hourglass figure (9 yo dd is clearly going to be the same). I remember my parents taking a hand each and having my Dads coat put round me, whilst my Mum and Dad glared at several men who leered at me. My Mum was sent into a shop to buy me a new outfit and the dress was binned.

I remember feeling guilty for having worn something that made men stare at me. I from then on lived in baggy jumpers and jeans. That was wrong though, my parents should have called out the perverts who thought it ok to leer at an 11 year old girl (and yes I looked 11) instead of making out it was my fault they looked at me because of the way I was dressed!

KaliforniaDreamz Sun 17-Mar-19 13:43:04

I think it may have got worse.
Toxic masculinity has become so normalised.

Bookworm4 Sun 17-Mar-19 13:45:23

I have 3 lovely DD and it's awful the things they've had said to them, fortunately they call them out, my favourite is 'Fuck off you revolting pervert' very loudly whilst laughing or 'would you like somebody to say that to your daughter?'
We need to always shame them, I'm in my 40s, work in a male dominated job and get comments again I shame them and surprisingly the majority are mortified.
On the other hand my 13 yr old has told me the disgusting attitude of boys in school who think nothing of calling girls slags and being sexually explicit.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 13:47:37

Really pleased to see the 2 or 3 posters on this thread who instead of feeling shock and outrage at the everyday treatment of girls and women by men and boys in the UK

Read it and feel shock and outrage that women and girls are angry about this and wonder why men as a group don't / won't do anything about it.

And compare street harassment (an everyday occurance for literally millions upon millions of women and girls all over the world every day) to a comparitivly very rare, very extreme atrocity.

Of course the good news is that seeing it like that means you can get angry with the women adn girls who are victims, and forget about the men and boys who are doing it.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 13:53:35

Some men at work brought this up recently.

They said they would never do anything if they saw a girl being accosted as they wouldn't want to get involved. They made vague noises about not wanting to get in fights.

I said but you don't need to get in a fight, if you just make it clear you have noticed, or say leave it out mate she's not interested or something, then that'll be enough vast majority of the time. Men listen to men more than women. Although I do and have intervened a couple of times.

Anyway they said no definitely not. My sense was it was less about fear and more about just not wanting to get involved in other people's business which is common across both men and women and why DV used to be ignored (still is TBH) and so on.

You do need a societal shift if most people see something as unacceptable it really puts off the more casual offenders, leaving only the hardcore which there are much less of.

Anyway these blokes all have DDs.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 13:57:47

Men and society in general very much feel that this is "womens business" I think. Something for women and girls to deal with.

Of course we have been trying forever and not got far because it's not in our power to change it because ti's not us who are doing it - but when we say we need some help from men to sort this apparently that's OUTRAGEOUS.

theDudesmummy Sun 17-Mar-19 13:59:08

Sexual harassment or even abuse of children does not equal paedophilia. That is a misconception. It is a minority of perpetrators who will do this because their primary sexual attraction is to children. It is more often about other factors: power amd control, self-esteem, cultural pressures etc etc. That is why is is such a widespread problem and so difficult to solve. Actual paedophilia is pretty rare in fact. Abuse and harrassment are sadly not.

KaliforniaDreamz Sun 17-Mar-19 14:00:30

I agree that it really isn't that hard to call it out. that banal sexist shite that men talk just takes one to say "not cool" or something similar.

I'm doing this all the time to that low key islamaphobic shite i hear around me and i am not dying from exhaustion doing it.

STEP THE FUCK UP

O4FS Sun 17-Mar-19 14:31:19

Stepping up doesn’t have to be a confrontation.

You can position yourself in their eyeline.

You can glare, and catch their eye to say ‘I see you’.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 14:42:07

No I very much agree it doesn't and with the men I was talking to it came across very much as an excuse, and one that they were telling themelves was reasonable, because they know it's actually not reasonable to look the other way when a 13yo girl is being harassed by an adult man in a public place and is obviously scared / upset (this was the example talked about).

Bizarrely it was them that started the convo not sure what they were hoping to get out of it.

mbosnz Sun 17-Mar-19 14:42:56

I know what you mean OP.

I was out with husband, 12 year old, and 14 year old.

12 year old is very well developed. Table next door, there was an older man who was constantly ogling her. Then when she left the table, eyes following, said something to his mate, which I didn't hear, and they both laughed, watching her.

I quietly leaned over and said, 'that is my 12 year old daughter you are ogling you filthy old pervert, and you'd better stop, or I'll be letting management know what you're doing and make damned sure you are removed'.

Their faces were a picture.

MeAgainAgain Sun 17-Mar-19 14:43:13

DH was in a cafe recently man watching porn on his device. Tables with kids around.

DH said he caught his eye and gave him a WTF look and man looked sheepish and stopped.

No drama.

O4FS Sun 17-Mar-19 14:46:11

If I’m not mistaken, watching porn in public leaves you susceptible to being charged with child abuse for exposing a child to porn. I’d be hissing this in his ear too. Vile, but not all that uncommon unfortunately.

Oceanbliss Sun 17-Mar-19 14:48:51

theDudesmummy paedophilia is not rare, what is rare is the victims getting intervention and justice; the perpetrators being held accountable. All the people throughout my life who have confided that they were sexually abused as children (and there has been many) only one had intervention, police involvement and a conviction. Only one out of the many. And most of the people who had been sexually abused had or were currently receiving counselling for the abuse. One was going to a support group. And yet despite this they have still not had any support at all in seeking an investigation and a conviction for this crime against them. Even though child sexual abuse is one of those crimes that do not (in my country) have a statute of limitations. It seems to me that for some obscure reason paedophiles are protected. And I must add that all these victims of child sexual abuse faced disbelief, outright denial by people who knew or witnessed the abuse, isolation, pressure/intimidation to keep silent and drop the issue.

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