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To not understand why bullfighting still happens

(61 Posts)
Holiday1578 Sat 09-Mar-19 14:07:42

Saw an upsetting picture on Twitter of the bullfighter and some official looking people in the front row laughing as a bull collapses and dies
Is anyone from or live in a country where bullfighting still takes place ? I don’t understand why there aren’t enough people against it for it to stop

JessicaWakefieldSVH Sun 10-Mar-19 08:59:24

It isn’t really. You’re just drawing a different line than others, of where you deem the use of animals to be unnecessary. It’s not necessary to farm animals for human survival. It’s a cultural tradition, like bullfighting. I don’t like bullfighting either, but I’m not prepared to attack other cultures use of animals when our culture unnecessarily uses them too.

Holiday1578 Sun 10-Mar-19 08:39:28

I think you have put it very articulately Ellen
And meat for food is a very different issue to animals being tortured for entertainment

Hollygoverylightly Sun 10-Mar-19 08:36:46

It's actually banned in Catalonia, but still goes on in France!! So the culture thing mmm. It's something that makes me very sad indeed, if you want to join forces and go and protest, let's do it!!

Ellenborough Sun 10-Mar-19 07:33:15

Oh for goodness sake spengler I’m sure they do. Can you not separate the fact that there will be some suffering as an (almost) unavoidable side effect of meat farming, with killing purely for sport, pleasure or art, and having an audience watch that killing for entertainment? hmm

If you read what I’ve said upthread it’s clear I’m not condoning cruelty in farming. But you don’t have to reject meat eating to have an issue with bullfighting, or any other blood sport that’s purely designed to give people a thrill.

I don’t think that anyone’s ‘right’ to practise something as part of their heritage or religion or culture (that would, in slightly different circumstances be considered barbaric, abusive and illegal) should trump an animal’s or a human’s right to not be tortured, brutalised, abused or have bits of their genitals or anything else pierced, slashed or cut off that they have not personally consented to in the full understanding of what will happen and why. Unless it has been shown to be an absolute medical necessity, obviously.

The one exception for me is the right to farm animal produce. But as intelligent people with a conscience and the wherewithal to mitigate suffering, (if not remove it completely) I believe we should farm, slaughter and eat our animal produce more mindfully, more compassionately and as ethically as is possible. And if we hunt for game then that should be done ethically also.

SpenglerOswald Sun 10-Mar-19 06:37:10

@Ellenborough think about what? I bet the majority of people who get irate about bullfighting eat meat.

Ellenborough Sun 10-Mar-19 06:10:27

No Spendler it really really doesn’t. The fact that you CAN’T compare the two and care more for the right to defend tradition is rather worrying though. Think about it.

SpenglerOswald Sun 10-Mar-19 06:02:44

Would you argue the same for little girls being held down by their aunties while some old crone slices up their genitals with no anaesthetic in Egypt or Somalia or Indonesia Spengler? obviously not, and the fact that you can compare the two shows how muddled your thinking is on the matter.

PineapplePower Sun 10-Mar-19 05:59:40

she said that the dog would be fine "dogs don't feel the cold"

I find Spanish attitudes towards dogs really tragic. Read about Spanish hunting dogs, a lot of people kill them after hunting season so they don’t have to take care of them the rest of the year

Ellenborough Sun 10-Mar-19 05:41:32

Arrested.

Ellenborough Sun 10-Mar-19 05:39:51

Would you argue the same for little girls being held down by their aunties while some old crone slices up their genitals with no anaesthetic in Egypt or Somalia or Indonesia Spengler?

When is barbarism acceptable because of ‘protecting heritage’ and when is it just plain old indefensible barbarism? Why do some communities get to defend their heritage and not others? What kind of fuckwits want to defend deliberate cruelty and barbarity purely for entertainment’s sake anyway? Would you be harrested for doing the same thing to a dog or a pig in your back garden in Spain? Of course you would. Take the ‘art’ out of it and it’s no different.

SpenglerOswald Sat 09-Mar-19 22:54:01

Because as a sovereign nation Spain is allowed to protect its heritage? Despite what the liberal elite think should happen

lljkk Sat 09-Mar-19 22:38:04

Wikipedia says that it's a myth about the Spanish bulls starved before a fight.

However, claim about Portuguese bullfighting that involved 24 hrs starvation.

The are breathtakingly beautiful magnificent cattle. Can't get a bull into that amazing condition by mistreating it. The purist fans also get angry if they think the bull has been hobbled in any unseen way which is seen as a kind of cheating. Only the violence seen in the ring is considered acceptable, and the animal is supposed to arrive in the ring in tiptop condition (would say the purists). The steak is sold as very prime cuts afterwards. So it has to be top quality.

To clarify, I'm not a fan. Just that of all the crappy things humans do, this is near bottom of my upsetting list.

lljkk Sat 09-Mar-19 22:29:40

Quora thread is interesting.

Ellenborough Sat 09-Mar-19 15:05:04

Yes of course, but my point is that no-one, not even the proudest most pig-headed Spaniard, could argue a 'need' for bullfighting.

RedForShort Sat 09-Mar-19 15:04:27

Those bulls have utterly fantastic lives until the last few hours (transport isn't fun, & last 20 minutes which I'll freely agree amounts to tormenting them to death).
As far as I'm aware the bulls are starved for days before hand and then given a lot of food before they are put in the arena. This method makes the bull dozy (like anyone is after eating a lot) and therefore easier to 'fight'.

JessicaWakefieldSVH Sat 09-Mar-19 14:59:40

* it can at least be argued that there is a need for it.*

It can also be argued there is not.

mrsjoyfulprizeforraffiawork Sat 09-Mar-19 14:57:58

I cannot bear animal cruelty and couldn't understand why bullfighting was a good watch for people. However, I then read "Death in the Afternoon" by Ernest Hemingway who loved the bullfight and understood what the attraction was for those who like to go (watching the supreme skill of a really talented toreador, positioning cape and body in classical moves, the theatre of the whole spectacle, etc) - Hemingway was in love with Spain, the Spanish and the bullfight so he puts his outlook on things much better than me, of course. I still abhor bullfighting but it made me understand the point of view of those who don't. The other thing is, I was once talking to a cleaner at work, who is Spanish, and we were discussing how I was working late and I remarked that I really needed to go home soon because the walker had probably left my dog in the garden (hot day) and she would be getting cold - she said that the dog would be fine "dogs don't feel the cold". I was a bit shocked and it was obvious that there are many people (probably not so many in UK as we are predominantly animal lovers here) who have really convinced themselves that animals don't suffer pain/cold, etc.
PS: For the mumsnet dog people - no, I don't leave my current dog alone in the garden as I am well aware that dogs are stolen from gardens a lot nowadays.

Ellenborough Sat 09-Mar-19 14:47:18

Exactly Holiday

We all know that the meat farming industry is not ideal and there is huge room for improvement where animal welfare is concerned but it can at least be argued that there is a need for it.

Deliberately hurting, terrifying, tormenting, humiliating and eventually killing an animal for fun and entertainment is not really comparable.

BejamNostalgia Sat 09-Mar-19 14:44:20

ps: it is dying out. Most hispanics view it as a historical peculiarity.

Spanish people aren’t Hispanic.

Meandmetoo Sat 09-Mar-19 14:44:11

I think it is dying out now thankfully op.

I'm not one to celebrate the death of any human normally, but when I see matadors and hunters get their well earned comeuppance its hard not to smirk a little.

Holiday1578 Sat 09-Mar-19 14:42:20

Jessica - I think it’s more the fact of the animal being tortured for entertainment that gets to me

JessicaWakefieldSVH Sat 09-Mar-19 14:40:06

I grew up on a free range farm. Trust me, some pretty horrific things happen to animals so you can eat them. Don’t even get me started on commercial slaughter houses. You can’t single out certain cultures without looking at your own.

dreichuplands Sat 09-Mar-19 14:37:25

For the same reasons as fox hunting, hare coursing, fighting with dogs etc still happen whether or not they are legal.
I lived somewhere with a bull ring, it was used but I don't know anyone who went there. It is slowly dying out in some countries.

Holiday1578 Sat 09-Mar-19 14:32:04

Heath- unfortunately i think a lot of people go on the wrong side of the law and fox hunting does still happen

Hoppinggreen Sat 09-Mar-19 14:31:04

I wasn’t saying it was right, I was answering OPs question about why it hasn’t been banned

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