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Sons name Caleb pronounced differently, anyone else have child’s name like this 😡

(195 Posts)
Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:08:58

Hi
So my son is 8 months and called Caleb
We pronounce it cay - leb (as in leb in the word celeb ).
everyone else pronounces it cay - lub as in the u in urgh (not lub that rhymes with tub 😂 lol)
We are so annoyed that we are thinking of changing his name
I correct people all the time but I’ve been told we’ve spelt it wrong and say it wrong even by my own sister and mil
It’s in the blooming bible haha
I do understand the name has modernised to be Kaleb though
Has anyone else got a child who seems like they have two names with the pronunciation?? Or anyone with a Caleb ??

Fiveredbricks Fri 08-Mar-19 22:11:31

Khay-lheb is not how you would pronounce it confused

Khay-lhb is... They are pronouncing it correctly as long as they aren't emphasising a 'uhb' in it.

SovietKitsch Fri 08-Mar-19 22:12:15

You’re spelling it and pronouncing correctly as far as I’m concerned! Don’t change it, just ignore!

Imfinehowareyou Fri 08-Mar-19 22:12:24

I've only heard Caleb with your preferred pronounciation. Where do you live? It would be Caleb (Kay-leb) in the South for sure.

youllhavehadyourtea Fri 08-Mar-19 22:12:45

I don't hear the difference between Caleb and Kaleb.

Both to me sound kay - lebb ( leb rhymes with leg)

lottielady Fri 08-Mar-19 22:13:37

My dog is called Caleb, and the vet insists on pronouncing it Kall - eb, to rhyme with Pal-eb.

Drives me nuts.

UnderMajorDomoMinor Fri 08-Mar-19 22:14:40

Yours is right, cay-lerb is hard to say!

SaucyJack Fri 08-Mar-19 22:14:46

I’d probably say Calub, but in my accent there’s not really enough difference between the two for it to be an issue.

Slat3 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:14:49

Kay-leb to me. I’m in Manchester.

Bumblebeezy Fri 08-Mar-19 22:15:51

I have always heard it pronounced Cay-leb.

Local accents causing the different pronunciation maybe?

CherryValance Fri 08-Mar-19 22:16:03

I'd have said it your way too

pictish Fri 08-Mar-19 22:16:06

I’ve only ever known it pronounced as Kay-lib. Don’t know if that’s useful to know.
I can’t imagine how you’re pronouncing it though.

HunterHearstHelmsley Fri 08-Mar-19 22:16:12

I'd say it Kay-lub. Kay-leb would have to be really conscious to me. I've only ever heard Kay-lub.

Are you all from the same area?

Sashkin Fri 08-Mar-19 22:16:15

I think that's just a difference in accent rather than pronouncing it wrong. Like how North Americans pronounce "water" as "wadda". I have a colleague called Mary, over here in Canada people pronounce that "Merry", I still say "Mary", afaik she doesn't expect me to put on a fake Canadian accent, she just accepts the same word sounds different in a London accent.

It's pretty annoying your family say you've spelt it wrong, how do they think you should spell it? That is just them being rude honestly. I wouldn't change a name you like based on your inlaws being arses.

nimski Fri 08-Mar-19 22:16:27

I know 2 Calebs. Both said Cay-Leb.
Ignore them - you are right!

Usuallyinthemiddle Fri 08-Mar-19 22:16:28

Kay-l-b

You wouldn't say May-belle. You'd say May-b-l. Same vowel sound.

I think you'll be correcting a long while yet! Sorry. Kay-lebbe is unusual.

staceyflack Fri 08-Mar-19 22:21:13

Clementine.... as in the orange... people mostly pronounce it Clementeen (french)... or Clementina. I've had Ophelia.... called O'r'phelia..and spelt Arfelia.. what can one do. Caleb is lovely and i read it and said it like you. Try not to over stress about it. flowers

Sashkin Fri 08-Mar-19 22:22:18

Cay-leb and Cay-lub are close enough that I probably couldn't hear the difference in most accents.

Cay-LURB is totally wrong wrong wrong in any accent, so YADNBU if they are saying it like that.

donquixotedelamancha Fri 08-Mar-19 22:22:19

I would pronounce it Cay-lhb, with a deep-south American drawl. Please tell me his sister is called Merlyn?

cuppycakey Fri 08-Mar-19 22:23:55

Cay - leb

South Coast here. Never heard it pronounced any other way.

MrsEricBana Fri 08-Mar-19 22:26:16

Google "How to pronounce Caleb Followill"

SirVixofVixHall Fri 08-Mar-19 22:27:56

Caleb here is cal as in pal, then leb as in pleb. ( Wales) . I have never heard Cay leb .

chiefmummabear Fri 08-Mar-19 22:28:32

My 22 yr old son is Caleb, and I pronounce as you do - ‘leb’ at the end. He does get some variations amongst his friends though. I don’t worry too much, the difference is very subtle.

VelvetPineapple Fri 08-Mar-19 22:29:23

I don’t hear the difference between Ca-leb and Ca-lub?

TakeMe2Insanity Fri 08-Mar-19 22:29:42

Just continue to correct people and don’t change your son’s name.

PlasticPatty Fri 08-Mar-19 22:30:21

caleb

peachgreen Fri 08-Mar-19 22:30:50

Do you mean CAYlub vs cay-LEB, OP? The emphasis differs?

Sophisticatedsarcasm Fri 08-Mar-19 22:31:09

I’ve always pronounced it that way, been on my baby list since DS was born. 😂

JustTrying15 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:31:26

Totally different here but I would be saying Kale Ubb

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:31:39

I’m south west uk
Apparently northern pronounce it cay lub but I don’t know
American shows pronounce it differently too
I also have a dr who says ca - leb so without the y pronunciation
Think that’s the original Hebrew way which is understandable
I do have a friend who’s daughter is Esme pronounced Esmay but she gets called esmee
Guess it’s the same for Louie / Lewis / Louis
So strange how everyone pronounes things differently
It’s jusy annoying when I would like it said how I say it
I wrote it down on paper and my 6 year old said cay - leb
Though , I was crazy (😂) and messaged a fellow Caleb on Facebook who said his friends kinda lose the e and blend it but he is cay - leb
Someone in my town has a son called Kaleb and says it kay - lub

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:32:02

Yes 🤗

Trickybrief Fri 08-Mar-19 22:32:21

My nephew is called Caleb. It’s pronounced cay-lub here (Scotland)

Amanduh Fri 08-Mar-19 22:33:12

I know three boys named Caleb... Two English (cay-leb) an an American (Call-ub) Proper pronunciation aside, it’s a dialect thing. Strictly with that rule Scarlett should be scar-lett but EVERYONE says scar-lutt.

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:33:17

It’s really interesting to see the different variations
Even you tube have different versions depending on countries
There’s about 4 different ones I’ve heard

Bigonesmallone3 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:33:37

I would read it as Kay-leb

I'm in the south east

peachgreen Fri 08-Mar-19 22:33:50

I've only ever heard it CAYlub I'm afraid, emphasis on the CAY.

firsttimemummy11 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:35:41

My son is Kaleb, and we pronounce it like you but some people don't, although doesn't bug me too much except the doctors surgery pronounce is Ka - Leeb 🤷🏼‍♀️

cuppycakey Fri 08-Mar-19 22:35:46

I would say Scar - let with the emphasis on the first syllable. I wouldn't say scar - lutt.

TheDarkPassenger Fri 08-Mar-19 22:37:02

Northern here and pronounce that name cay lub.

Sorry! I don’t think it sounds bad either way though

user1471426142 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:37:15

I’ve only ever heard it as Kay-leb

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:37:34

I love his name and it goes with his brothers , Riley and mason
It was either Caleb or Wyatt ( yes I am a vampire diaries /charmed etc geek 🤓)

Bearbehind Fri 08-Mar-19 22:37:43

I’d say Kah-leb.

It’s not obvious the Ca is Kay let alone the last part.

3out Fri 08-Mar-19 22:41:52

I’d say Kay-lib.

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:41:54

I suppose if people wanted to get really picky they could say all names can be pronounced differently
Especially if you sound our what you’re reading on paper
I don’t mind the ca ( rhymes with ma) leb as apparently that’s the original way from the bible
Though I’m not 100% sure if that’s true
The Hebrew way is Calev

RandomName9 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:42:57

My name is Danielle. Me & my husband pronounce it: Dani-elle - the way it is spelt!
far too many people pronounce it Dan-yell or Dan-yella
I gave up trying to correct people because they genuinely couldn’t see there was a difference!!

3out Fri 08-Mar-19 22:43:28

(How’s the u in urgh any different to the u in tub?)

Jeffjefftyjeff Fri 08-Mar-19 22:43:53

I have a relative called Caleb. He was once called ‘cal-EEB’ by a football coach for a whole year and it is our go-to ‘hilarious’ pronunciation to irritate him. Otherwise cay-leb by pretty much everyone (south west) except a few (but not all) relatives in north west, who say ‘cay-lub’

TallulahBetty Fri 08-Mar-19 22:45:10

Is the issue CAYleb/CAYlub?

Or CAYleb/CayLEB?

Bearbehind Fri 08-Mar-19 22:45:27

I suppose if people wanted to get really picky they could say all names can be pronounced differently

Not really.

There’s no other way of saying John, Paul, Steve, Lee the list goes on.

More unusual names will always attract variations in pronouncing.

mum11970 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:46:12

I’m in Wales like SirVixo and only ever heard it pronounced Cal-eb.

Bearbehind Fri 08-Mar-19 22:46:53

See, I’d say Dan-yell too. 😂

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 22:47:24

Kay-l-b

You wouldn't say May-belle. You'd say May-b-l. Same vowel sound.

I think you'll be correcting a long while yet! Sorry. Kay-lebbe is unusual.

I know (and now of) quite a few boys/men of that name and I've only ever heard it pronounced Kay-lebbe - never any other way. You can't just say that it's the same vowel sound as in Mabel, though, as clearly different letters can represent different sounds in different words. Even just staying with people's names, you'd never pronounce Isobel to rhyme with 'visible', would you?

As beautifully covered by Dave Gorman, would you pronounce Loughborough as Luff-ber-uff or Luh-ber-uh?

If anything, I'm guessing (prepared to be gainsaid by any native speakers) that, in the original Hebrew, it would have been the 'a' that was pronounced differently from the English-speaking-country standard and not the 'e' - so something like Kall-ebb.

On the subject of Hebrew/Bible names, I'm quite puzzled as to how the name Elishah (a man in the Old Testament and, AFAIK, the only well-known owner of the name for thousands of years) is now used pretty much exclusively as a name for girls (often spelt without the silent second 'h') - as an alternative spelling for Alicia. That's probably just me, though.

FiddleFaddleDingDong Fri 08-Mar-19 22:47:28

would always pronounce Caleb as KAY-lub

And the pp's Danielle as dan-yell. Although if a Danielle asked me to pronounce it danny-ell I would of course do so!

ADHMeeee Fri 08-Mar-19 22:49:13

Its like a mash up of Caleb and Kaylum.

Calubb.

I've only ever heard it pronounced Cay-Leb.

If I wrote my eldest's name publicly it would potentially out me in a child protection type situation but her name has several potential spellings and she gets called all sorts. Its also unisex and has different meanings in different countries. Its unusual but weirdly, there's another one in the sixth form at her school. Until sept, she had never ever met another child with her name.

Ithinkthatsenough Fri 08-Mar-19 22:49:19

If you come accross any welsh speakers... our pronounciation is Ca-leb... no Kay sound at all

TallulahBetty Fri 08-Mar-19 22:49:58

Is Kaylum a real name?

Teanocoffee Fri 08-Mar-19 22:51:00

Interesting. Caleb was on our list of names but we went for a difficult (for the English) Irish name instead and just accepted natural variations but i generally stick to the local pronouncination. I knew I'd get variations on his name and just accepted it. Of course i correct them but it wasn't enough to consider a name change.

I get different pronunciations once or twice a week and i cant be bothered correcting them sometimes.

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:51:46

My cousin is Danielle and we say how you do
But she also gets Dan yell

And for the tub and urgh
It’s hard to try say what I mean
They don’t empathise the u to the extreme but it’s more of the u sound than the e I say
I feel the way I say the name maybe drags it out a bit more ?! I notice when my partner says his name fast it turns into more of a u than an e
I just don’t want him growing up having to correct people
I have a surname that I always had to correct and still do
No one can seem to pronounce that
Doidge

ADHMeeee Fri 08-Mar-19 22:51:47

Oh and I agree it may be a dialect thing, don't change it, you love his name. That's what matters. I had a meeting with her senco last week and I said her name, and the senco looked horrified and said she's been pronouncing it wrong since sept and DD hasn't bothered correcting her. I said not to worry because she gets called all sorts, probably doesn't hear you anyway, and currently goes by the name Brian because its a laugh with her stepdad. She calls him Mandy.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 22:51:56

My dog is called Caleb

Makes perfect sense - it's a Ronseal name!

<wonders tangentially if there are any seals out there named Ron>

aliasjoey Fri 08-Mar-19 22:54:49

webuilt yes, I pronounce my daughters name Isobel to rhyme with visible... it’s the correct Scottish pronunciation. (I’m the only one who does though, her English grandma over-emphasises it like ‘Is-OH-bel’ smile )

Buddytheelf85 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:55:34

I’d say CAY-leb (emphasis on first syllable. But you do have to get used to people pronouncing things differently.

My and my DH’s nephew is called Joshua, which is a beautiful name. We all pronounce it how it’s written - ‘Josh-u-a’. His Canadian grandmother (my MIL) pronounces it ‘Josh-WAA’ which I absolutely irrationally hate!

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:56:00

No you’re right about Steve , John etc
However , different ways of spelling those names
And Caleb to me isn’t unusual because it’s in the bible along with John and Paul

FermatsTheorem Fri 08-Mar-19 22:58:02

I'd pronounce it Cay-leb as well.

happierever Fri 08-Mar-19 22:59:12

I'm quite puzzled as to how the name Elishah (a man in the Old Testament and, AFAIK, the only well-known owner of the name for thousands of years) is now used pretty much exclusively as a name for girls (often spelt without the silent second 'h') - as an alternative spelling for Alicia. That's probably

See I would pronounce that ee-lie-she not Alisha

NeverSayFreelance Fri 08-Mar-19 22:59:18

Caleb is one of my favourite names, but I've heard it pronounced both Cay-leb and Cay-lub. Usually depends on the accents. I tend to favour the latter - but I think you might just have to deal with the fact not everyone has the exact same way of speaking. My name sounds completely different depending on the accent - my Scottish family say one thing, my English grandmother-in-law says another, and my American cousins say another. That's just how it is.

FiddleFaddleDingDong Fri 08-Mar-19 22:59:31

One syllable names are obviously likely to sound the same no matter where you are, add in another syllable or two however...

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 22:59:38

I think I’ve just to got to accept there’s many ways to say the name and it totally depends on where someone comes from
I love the name so I’ll say it as I do
Just annoying when people say I say it or spell it wrong
I could make up a name for my
Son and it would be right to me because I said so and he’s my child haha😂
My friends son is called zylan
And he gets called zylan to rhyme with Dylan or zyelen yet it’s pronounced zaylan

OwlBeThere Fri 08-Mar-19 23:01:34

My dog is called Caleb, and the vet insists on pronouncing it Kall - eb, to rhyme with Pal-eb
I know a child who pronounces it kah-leb! I found it weird to begin with but now I’m user though

Usuallyinthemiddle Fri 08-Mar-19 23:02:01

Alicia is Al-i-see-a not Al-ee-sha, surely? Two different names.
With a 2 syllable name, the default English pronunciation would emphasise the first. (Mostly). CAY-leb. Rather than CAY- LEB.
You can pronounce anything any way you fancy. But people will use their most comfortable way to say it.

TallulahBetty Fri 08-Mar-19 23:04:10

I know two Alicias. One is Alissia and one is Aleesha

Usuallyinthemiddle Fri 08-Mar-19 23:04:29

And yes El-eye-sha in the big book (alt. Elijah I imagine?).

WinterWife Fri 08-Mar-19 23:04:32

I'm in the north east, been saying it out loud whilst reading this thread.

Even when I'm saying Cal-eb it's still coming out Cal-ub angry

Sorry OP, promise I'm trying 🙈

NeverSayFreelance Fri 08-Mar-19 23:05:38

If you want an interesting variation though... I know a Kailib. Before I met him I assumed it was Kai-leeb,. But no, it is Caleb.

uncomfortablydumb53 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:06:03

My dog is called Caleb, it's always pronounced as Kay Lebb by everyone who knows him

ScaredofMomo Fri 08-Mar-19 23:06:12

I pronounce it how to was pronounced in the tv show American Gothic. If that helps?! 🤷🏻‍♀️

Chocolatedeficitdisorder Fri 08-Mar-19 23:06:20

My Dd is called Leah, another old bible name, which is pronounced
Lee-Ah. I thought most people would know that, but she is regularly called either Lay-ah or just Lee.

youllhavehadyourtea Fri 08-Mar-19 23:09:26

Is Kaylum a real name?

maybe it's a new/(mis) pronunciation of Calum?
Like Colin is pronounced Coelin in America?

:-/

Cel982 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:10:12

The 'e' sound in Caleb is a schwa, OP - an unstressed syllable that's usually given an 'uh' sound. The degree to which it is 'uh' rather than 'eh' will vary between accents, but I've only ever heard it pronounced KAY-lub.

Unihorn Fri 08-Mar-19 23:10:54

I'm so baffled by the previous Welsh posters. I'm Welsh and have only ever heard Cay-lub, although as PPs have said it's more of a Cay-l-b with the u dropped when it's said in conversation.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 23:12:06

webuilt yes, I pronounce my daughters name Isobel to rhyme with visible... it’s the correct Scottish pronunciation. (I’m the only one who does though, her English grandma over-emphasises it like ‘Is-OH-bel’ smile )

My apologies - I've never heard it pronounced any way other than IS-uh-bell. Probably too much Enid Blyton as a child! The plot thickens....

Usuallyinthemiddle Fri 08-Mar-19 23:15:33

Both my children have prominent R's in their names and I'm a Wossy so I really shouldn't have an opinion on this!

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 23:16:26

Elijah and Elishah are two separate men in the Bible - can be quite confusing!

When I compared its modern usage with 'Alicia', I was assuming that it was always pronounced Al-EE-shuh (as in Dixon), but of course, Al-ISS-ee-uh is also a variant pronunciation.

Petalflowers Fri 08-Mar-19 23:17:48

In my mind, I. Pronounce it Kay -Lib!

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 23:21:08

Both my children have prominent R's in their names and I'm a Wossy so I really shouldn't have an opinion on this!

This chap would certainly empathise grin

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AofbXQNWE3s

Powernaps Fri 08-Mar-19 23:22:32

Only ever heard it as Cay-Leb. Can't see where an "urbh" sound would come out of something clearly spelt as LEB (as in, rhymes with SEB). Nobody would say Surbh if someone's name was Seb?!

Correct then ignore it smile

angieloumc Fri 08-Mar-19 23:22:39

I'm in Yorkshire and I say Cay-leb though my friend has a grandson and she says Cay-lub. Just keep correcting them, annoying as it is.

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:24:48

I’m just going to keep saying how I want it said
Least he can have a choice when he’s older 😂😂
The other half and I just sat on the sofa and said we’ve got 4 months left to change it if we want
Though I like the name teddy and he likes hunter
Caleb suits his name though

Powernaps Fri 08-Mar-19 23:27:20

WeBuilt but IS-uh-bel is what that poster is saying is correct for Isobel?! As opposed to Is-OH-Bel. With the emphasis on the "OH" instead of the IS.

It's more to do with emphasis on syllables as much as/than pronunciation.

I would say IS-uh-bel as in VIS-i-ble, like the poster says. Not "Is-O-Bel" (which would make it "Vis-IH-Ble" in comparison/turn).

Powernaps Fri 08-Mar-19 23:28:47

WeBuilt - sorry, misread your post smile

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 23:32:13

I mentioned on another thread a little while ago about the singer Chris Rea. His surname in most English accents would be pronounced 'Ray', but because, in his native Middlesbrough accent, the name 'Ray' sounds like 'Rear' in most English accents, that has become the accepted pronunciation of his name. I'm guessing he always looked at his healthy bank account and just shrugged it off, unbothered!

Therefore, if you asked him how to pronounce his own name, you might apparently clearly hear it as 'Rear' - but if you then heard him say what might well sound to you like "It's Fridear todear" then it would all become clear (not 'clay' grin)

fargo123 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:33:16

I’ve only ever known it pronounced as Kay-lib.
I can’t imagine how you’re pronouncing it though.
Ditto.
Regardless of how it's pronounced, I'd expect Kayleb and Caleb to be pronounced the same.

My friends son is called zylan And he gets called zylan to rhyme with Dylan or zyelen yet it’s pronounced zaylan
Never heard of his name before, but, like all the other people this person apparently comes into contact with, I'd assume it rhymes with Dylan too. If the parents wanted it pronounced Zaylan then spell it that way.

Giraffey1 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:35:29

Caylehb. Not unusual at all. Never ever heard it pronounced in any other way.

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:37:36

Zylan is an Indonesian name I think
My friend travelled and came across the name abroad
Tbh I did ask her if she spelt it right and now she says that to me with Caleb 😂

Tonijo1990 Fri 08-Mar-19 23:39:52

I’m interested to know now how everyone would pronounce my surname
Doidge

Apparently it’s a Dutch / German background name though not completely sure if that’s true

Almost40andweeping Fri 08-Mar-19 23:41:35

This thread makes me think of Caleb Followill of of kings of Leon who is HOOOOOOTTTTTTTTT!

NunoGoncalves Fri 08-Mar-19 23:50:38

My friend from London has a Caleb and everyone pronounces it Cay-lub (that second syllable you described as the u in "urgh" rather than "tub" is actually a "schwa" – google it if you're interested).

I think it's one of those names that has a variety of pronunciations. Like some people say Will-ee-um and some people say Will-yum. It doesn't need to be a problem unless you let it.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 23:50:55

I’m just going to keep saying how I want it said
Least he can have a choice when he’s older 😂😂

That's absolutely all that matters. You can't expect people to instinctively get it right the first time they meet him, but once you gently correct them, if they don't then pronounce it correctly (unless it's extremely complicated and they try hard, but just can't get it), it's the height of bad manners.

The name Isaac has exploded in popularity recently and I've also noticed a few babies called Issac. However much my instinct is to pronounce it 'ISS-ukh' and not 'EYE-zukh', as soon as the parents confirm that they intend it to be pronounced the same as Isaac, that's what any decent person does.

We once met an American who, although otherwise quite nice, was a bit of a know-it-all (KIA). For some reason, he saw fit to show off his ignorance regale us with a tale of when he met a man with the surname 'Ham' and that, when Mr Ham had introduced himself (pronouncing it like in standard English - I didn't care catch whether he was British or not), KIA rudely 'corrected' the man and insisted "NO! YOUR name is HAAAAARRM!!!" Considering that, even in many American accents, it would be pronounced with the same short 'a' sound, he just came across as really dim, arrogant and ghastly.

Even if Mr Ham had said that his surname was actually pronounced as 'Pork', 'Bacon' or 'Awopbopaloobopawopbamboom', it's his name, so how about you just accept and assume him to be the authority on it?!

Lalliella Fri 08-Mar-19 23:53:17

Kay-Leb for sure. Great name! Don’t change it.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll Fri 08-Mar-19 23:53:56

@Powernaps

Are you suggesting that this thread, fascinating as it is, somehow has some scope for confusion? grin grin grin

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