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to think the n.h.s is going to ruin for things like this

(97 Posts)
diabeticsanon Tue 26-Feb-19 11:03:25

dm was in hospital and when she left was transported back with two hospital blankets. i took them back to the ward a week later and one auxillary said 'oh, give it to the nurse over there, but you could have kept them or thrown them away'. the other nurse looked at me as if i'd given him a bag of dog shit and put them on the side without a word of thanks confused.
mum also has put out two perfectly good walking frames [without my knowledge] for council bulk collection. her excuse ? wouldn't give me one.
so much money and resources are drained from the n.h.s.every day it's stupid things like this that aren't helping anyone.

bilbodog Tue 26-Feb-19 11:43:18

I think the problem with this is that they would have to clean things to such a high standard once they have left the hospital that they cant afford to and it is cheaper and simpler to bin things now. They wouldnt take back my crutches after a knee operation either - im keeping them for when i get old 🤣

TFBundy Tue 26-Feb-19 11:45:44

YANBU - I dutifully returned walking frames, a hoist and a commode after MIL died. I was looked at like I had 3 heads and spoken to like dog shit. Won't bother next time. They went to landfill!

BooksAreMyOnlyFriends Tue 26-Feb-19 11:50:11

Such a waste of money but without staff to sort through the stuff I guess it just becomes another burden on them.

FraggleRocking Tue 26-Feb-19 11:50:42

Not saying that you didn’t treat them well but the hospital has no idea if they are safe anymore. If they have even the slightest damage something could end up going terribly wrong down the line. Plus there is obviously the hygiene issue.
The staff should’ve been more polite though. That’s just manners.

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 11:51:32

They wouldn’t take the commode we had back either, despite if being immaculate. Infection control I guess.

Mosaic123 Tue 26-Feb-19 11:53:00

They should have a label saying what to do with them afterwards.

Thesearmsofmine Tue 26-Feb-19 11:55:18

My ds was sent home with an NHS blanket and they said not to worry about bringing it back in. It does seem wasteful.

SoupDragon Tue 26-Feb-19 12:00:22

The One Show had a segment about this wastage. There are some locations with schemes to collect things like commodes/crutches/frames etc and get them back into use though.

Dungeondragon15 Tue 26-Feb-19 12:04:12

I don't really get how not taking back the blankets you have used is "wasteful". If they took returns they would have to be cleaned and perhaps disinfected and there is a cost to this which could be as much as the blanket is worth. If you keep them you can use them so they are only wasted if you don't do that i.e. you have wasted them not the NHS.
As for walking frames etc, I think that many NHS trusts to recycle them if not all. They certainly do in my area. Did your mum even check? If not again, it is not the NHS that is wasting resources!

SoupDragon Tue 26-Feb-19 12:06:31

I don't really get how not taking back the blankets you have used is "wasteful". If they took returns they would have to be cleaned and perhaps disinfected and there is a cost to this which could be as much as the blanket is worth.

What do you think they usually do with bedding?

SpuriouserAndSpuriouser Tue 26-Feb-19 12:14:42

You’re being far too simplistic. The NHS is in crisis because it’s chronically underfunded. It needs millions more pounds investing in it a year, not whatever could be saved by getting a few blankets or walking frames back (minus the cost of implementing a scheme to facilitate this).

AlexaAmbidextra Tue 26-Feb-19 12:15:40

If they took returns they would have to be cleaned and perhaps disinfected

Yes, just like they do with all the bedding that is used every day in the hospital. confused

DaveCoachesgavemetheclap Tue 26-Feb-19 12:18:38

When my mum was in hospital recently, she was given a pair of non slip socks every day, even though she was immobile for the first week and needed to use a bed pan etc She was horrified that the HCA would put a new pair on everybody and just throw the old pairs in the bin after one day's wear. Apart from the expense, think of the landfill!

Thesearmsofmine Tue 26-Feb-19 12:19:40

Dungeondragon15 same as they would be if they weren’t sent home in the first place!

I don’t think sending blankets back would save the nhs I just think it is really wasteful, they will have to replace every blanket sent home,’any of those blankets will just end up in landfill somewhere.

LaFreaka Tue 26-Feb-19 12:19:45

I had to beg for a pair of crutches when I broke my toe - they complained that people never returned them.

cdtaylornats Tue 26-Feb-19 12:20:47

When my mother's next door neighbour died the council came and collected all of the things Social Services had supplied.

downcasteyes Tue 26-Feb-19 12:23:23

spuriouser is right. The problem is (deliberate) underfunding, and a false narrative that the problem is inefficiencies rather than the astronomical costs that come with an ageing population with increasingly complex health and social care needs.

Yes, there are always minor ways you can save money in an organisation. No, they are not the major problem, which is that we all need to pay more in taxes for a first class health system.

GregoryPeckingDuck Tue 26-Feb-19 12:23:59

I think that these things are very minor in comparison to the number of people taking advantage and using the nhs for unnecessary procedures (like mastectomies for transmem or colds in A&E) or using the NHS when they could easily afford private treatment. This is exacerbated by NHS policies prevent private referrals/refusing to use results from private tests/scans.

DaveCoachesgavemetheclap Tue 26-Feb-19 12:24:22

When my DH broke his leg, I was told he could keep the crutches as they didn't reuse them, yet when in A&E with my mum before she was admitted, one of the nurses gave a bloke a crutch to use but told him to bring it back when he'd finished. This was in the same hospital. I imagine that if someone were given a used crutch and it broke, they could sue the hospital for injuries caused.

AnyOldPrion Tue 26-Feb-19 12:25:24

Not just the NHS. These kinds of wasteful attitudes are one of the reasons our planet is subject to global warming.

My parents’ generation rarely threw anything away. You can’t alleviate all risk, but throwing perfectly good equipment away is appalling. The UK now has such a blame culture that many perfectly good and sensible pathways are now pushed aside as potentially too costly.

OhTheRoses Tue 26-Feb-19 12:27:42

My local hospital has notices up asking for things to be returned.

Don't understand the mentality upthread though when in the next breath inpatients may be told they can't have another pillow due to lack of resources though.

What gets my goat is the money spent on endless reviews that lead nowhere.

Dungeondragon15 Tue 26-Feb-19 12:30:15

Yes, just like they do with all the bedding that is used every day in the hospital.

The bedding that they used every day in the hospital would be designed to be disinfected without disintegrating. I'm not sure that the bedding used to transport the patients to the hospital in an ambulance would be the same. The latter would probably be warmer and not necessarily made of the same material.

orangetreesinspring Tue 26-Feb-19 12:34:40

As a hospital worker I would imagine the issue is that the management of a hospital would in theory like all the equipment back again but there is no one in the hospital who's actual job it is to accept returned equipment and ensure it goes back into service.

So equipment is given to random staff members who have no clue what to do!

Our reception is peopled by volunteers who would have even less idea what to do with equipment.

Although, I find ward staff not wanting blankets to be really odd, we would just put it straight in the washing hold and be very grateful!

As part of the big nhs picture, it's not that we are wasteful in this instance, it's that we are so understaffed we can't really manage the issue of returned equipment. There are too many other jobs to be done with too few staff.

Toddlerteaplease Tue 26-Feb-19 12:35:20

I'd be quite impressed with your honesty if you bought a blanket back. But I'd really wonder why you bothered!

Dungeondragon15 Tue 26-Feb-19 12:35:26

I don’t think sending blankets back would save the nhs I just think it is really wasteful, they will have to replace every blanket sent home,’any of those blankets will just end up in landfill somewhere.

Wouldn't you keep them and reuse them yourself though? I would. It seems a bit bizarre that you are blaming the NHS for being wastful when you would through a perfectly good blanket in the bin.

Cerealkillers Tue 26-Feb-19 12:37:27

The cleaning process for hospital flat work, sheets, blankets etc is much cheaper than replacing them!

Thesearmsofmine Tue 26-Feb-19 12:38:10

I didn’t say I threw the one we have I the bin, it is sat upstairs in my house but many people will just throw it away just like they do with everything else.

BrazenHusky74 Tue 26-Feb-19 12:40:23

I am in for a MRI soon and will make sure that the clothes I wear are free of metal. This serves 2 purposes, firstly it saves the NHS having to provide me with 2 gowns (one to cover the front and one worn like a dressing gown) which then have to be laundered. Secondly, it ensures that I am comfortable, I don't have to worry about exposing bits in the waiting area or shave my legs.
Nowhere in the pile of paperwork which I received is this suggested even though I strongly believe most people would prefer to wear their own clothing if they knew.
I realise this doesn't save the NHS vast sums of money but is it just one example.

TFBundy Tue 26-Feb-19 12:40:25

I would absolutely throw it away - Christ only knows where it's been and I doubt it would survive being boiled in Dettol. The cleanliness of most hospitals I have seen in the UK leaves much to be desired.

NancyFrank Tue 26-Feb-19 12:51:46

After a serious accident over the years I had a banana board, wheelchair, walking frame, crutches and 3 different walking sticks. The physio team were so grateful that we returned it all as so many don't. Always return things even just to save them from landfill

SpringForEver Tue 26-Feb-19 13:05:30

I have seen things like these on Ebay and Freecycle/Freegle, people are grateful to get them. Maybe not take them to landfill and waste them when someone else could use them.

Council probably sell them on.

SpringForEver Tue 26-Feb-19 13:09:08

With regard to blankets, I spent a night waiting in A&E to be seen (not allowed to leave due to head trauma otherwise I would have gone home). There was someone waiting and there was a blanket which she was using. When she finally went to be seen it was left on the seat, a nurse took it in the end.

Just take them to A&E maybe, and leave them there, they might get re-used, or taken home by someone that needs one rather than binned.

Birdsgottafly Tue 26-Feb-19 13:11:20

Animal charities will take any bedding, including hospital blankets.

Your Mum was very wrong for not phoning the number she would have been given to have the equipment collected.

CoolJule43 Tue 26-Feb-19 13:16:47

I notice there was an article on the news the other day (can't remember if BBC Breakfast or Channel 5 at teatime) where they were cleaning something like a walking frame. Looked like it was being jet-washed. I think they are now taking them back again.

It is totally wasteful to not sterilise and re-use as they are charged a fortune for these type of products.

I'm gobsmacked that they didn't require the blankets back. So wasteful. I think we shouldn't complain about Government funding of the NHS until waste within the NHS is eliminated/minimised.

Aquilla Tue 26-Feb-19 13:20:02

The point is if waste is going on at this small level heaven knows what's being squandered higher up the chain.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking Tue 26-Feb-19 13:23:42

We have this discussion so frequently – you only have to google to see the infrastructure isnt there to keep, clean , disinfect and reuse in a great many trusts

This one – body parts and medical waste www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45750389 the back log is horrendous www.hsj.co.uk/quality-and-performance/exclusive-major-incident-as-hospital-waste-collections-halted/7023994.article

Our trust does not take back crutches or frames because the cost to clean is more than the cost to buy.

The NHS is incredibly wasteful, so much stuff is use once, eg every time DH goes to hospital they in put a set of cannulas, I looked up the cost, around £2 an item, often they are never used, or they are discarded and a fresh set re-sited in his arm. A waste of money but infection control prevails, they cannot be sterilised and reused. I have hundreds of pounds of equipment at home, thousands of pounds worth of drugs, but they cant take them back when his scripts change. A complete waste of money.

elloelloello Tue 26-Feb-19 13:29:19

We recently had a local appeal asking people to return stuff like crutches, walking frames, etc to the hospital

DD had a pair of crutches so I took them back - reception refused to take them. I’ve seen various posts on FB from people with the same experience.

It seems so wasteful

Biker47 Tue 26-Feb-19 13:35:35

You’re being far too simplistic. The NHS is in crisis because it’s chronically underfunded. It needs millions more pounds investing in it a year, not whatever could be saved by getting a few blankets or walking frames back (minus the cost of implementing a scheme to facilitate this).

Spending on healthcare has increased year on year for the better part of 3 decades, what is spent currently is nearly 3 times as much than the year 2000. Underfunded it is not, misspending and wastage are some big problems people seem all too happy to bury their heads in the sand about, as minuscule or something that wouldn't make a difference.

LeekMunchingSheepShagger Tue 26-Feb-19 13:39:53

I also tried to return a pair of crutches and the hospital refused to take them. It's baffling really. Surely the nhs could be saving tens of thousands a year by taking stuff back to re use?

GrandmaSharksDentures Tue 26-Feb-19 13:40:13

My unit has no facility to clean & safety check returned equipment (crutches).

There are no guidelines about how they should be cleaned or what should be used to clean them. We have no spare parts (grips for the feet or handles).

Would you be happy to be issued with used & dirty & unsafe equipment?

EdWinchester Tue 26-Feb-19 13:44:49

I was really surprised to be told to throw my son's crutches and a boot away, rather than return them.

GunpowderGelatine Tue 26-Feb-19 13:48:12

Infection prevention is a big issue, ex NHS worker here, it's cheaper to buy a new walking frame for example than it is to deal with the fallout and hassle of a virus spreading round the hospital.

But yes there is a lot of waste still in the NHS

PurpleWithRed Tue 26-Feb-19 13:50:19

If all it took to re-fund the NHS was the return of a few blankets believe me it would be happening.

PlainSpeakingStraightTalking Tue 26-Feb-19 13:54:28

The NHS isn’t underfunded - like any government organisation it is chronically mismanaged and wasteful because they don’t have to actually account to shareholders anyone for their sloppy management.

We did this the other week too – a meeting with Band 8’s and above, looking at 15-20 people a round the table on an annual salary between 70K and 100K. It was a meeting of nothing in particular, a scheduled Assurance Meeting, with no agenda, scrabbling round looking for topics the chat aimlessly about. Pointless, wasteful. Then I sat at Committee and listened to the same aimless conversations again, with the same people, and few extras for good measure. Utterly fucking pointless.

www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-2018-19

I use a Band 8 temp - £76 an hour shes paid - not in a clinical role. £2,800 a week to chat to patients and do some referals. Its not a clinic. Thats your waste.

ChardonnaysPrettySister Tue 26-Feb-19 13:56:25

Husky I believe you still will be asked to change into a gown, it’s mainly to protect the expensive equipment.

As for blankets, crutches and so on, then yes, it is wasteful and it’s also creates unnecessary rubbish witch needs to be disposed of.

ajandjjmum Tue 26-Feb-19 13:59:29

Surely the hospitals could adopt the same protocols for cleaning equipment, that they do for beds between patients. I can't believe that employing people to do this would cost more than re-ordering more equipment.

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 14:01:13

Bringing down HAI is of very high importance to the NHS. No one wants aun uncontrollable outbreak of Cdiff. Those HAI’s cost lives and money
It’s not cheap or easy to clean the items to a good standard so they buy in mass bulk

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 14:02:20

@ajandjjmum

They don’t have space or staff or equipment
They do sometimes outsource the cleaning to contractors but it’s usually cheaper to buy a brand new one

ajandjjmum Tue 26-Feb-19 14:06:33

But that doesn't make sense Pookie.

Cleaned, used equipment takes no more storage space than new equipment.

Employing appropriately trained people would cost less than contractors (who have to make a profit). If they did the job properly, infections would be prevented. Like with cleaning beds.

cushioncovers Tue 26-Feb-19 14:07:12

They should have accepted them graciously and then with gloves apron on quickly checked them and if they were ok put them in the laundry same as the rest of the bedding. That's what we used to do on the ward I worked on. Not that it happened very often.

icanthelpyou Tue 26-Feb-19 14:10:15

See I don’t think the NHS is underfunded. I think it’s been managed terribly, not to mention all the fraud.

Yabbers Tue 26-Feb-19 14:11:34

It’s a minor cost. The reason they don’t take back walking frames is they have no idea whether they have been damaged and weakened. They only have a certain working life. There are places collect them for charities overseas.

Plenty of wastage elsewhere in the NHS will ruin it before someone having a couple of extra blankets becomes a problem.

downcasteyes Tue 26-Feb-19 14:11:52

It's not true that we spend 3 x as much on healthcare now as in 2000!

fullfact.org/health/spending-english-nhs/

We're spending more on healthcare for many reasons - not least an ageing population. People are living longer, but not necessarily healthier, lives. The costs of care for older people with complex needs can be astronomical. Treatments have also become longer and more complicated and hence expensive than they were in the 1950s (thank goodness).

That, plus the legacy of PFIs, big pharma taking their cut etc. etc.

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 14:16:11

The NHS absolutely is under funded, that’s why it’s in crisis. It could be better managed but it’s desperately under resourced, both financially and in human resource terms. Where’s all the fraud, then? Some examples would be helpful when throwing that kind of allegation around.

dietcokemegafan Tue 26-Feb-19 14:17:51

@GregoryPecking duck

This is exacerbated by NHS policies prevent private referrals/refusing to use results from private tests/scans

there is no such policy - I'm a GP and I will look at private tests/scans that patients bring me, as long as they are from a reputable source and are in English. If not in English then I will happily look at them once the patient has arranged professional translation.

icanthelpyou Tue 26-Feb-19 14:20:34

The fraud, Fraud Squad NHS. It’s on catch up.

mogtheexcellent Tue 26-Feb-19 14:25:09

My village have a scheme where they lend crutches, wheelchairs etc that people have donated to those that need for post operation or, like me, severe SPD during pregnancy.

I was given a full leg brace when I broke my knees, it must have cost a few pounds so its such a shame these things cant be reused.

icanthelpyou Tue 26-Feb-19 14:25:36

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6251751/amp/Fraud-costs-NHS-1-29bn-YEAR-report-reveals.html

Another. It’s not underfunded it’s wasteful and people are ripping it off.

BrazenHusky74 Tue 26-Feb-19 14:27:12

I knew someone who bought a small community hospital to convert into a house, when she showed us around prior to the work starting there were rooms full of modern electric hospital beds with the air flow mattresses to stop pressure sores. The NHS had just shut the doors after the last patient had gone. We estimated the cost of the equipment left behind was £60,000. No one at the NHS wanted to know.

My small local hospital has just closed and I dread to think what might be locked away there.

Kazzyhoward Tue 26-Feb-19 14:38:12

It's not true that we spend 3 x as much on healthcare now as in 2000!

2.5 times then. It was £50bn in 2000 and £125bn in 2018. That's a huge increase even accounting for inflation and increasing population. But it's OK, as we have loads of fancy new hospitals with atriums!

CiarCel Tue 26-Feb-19 14:46:09

The way to deal with NHS wastage (and I don't mean a couple of blankets) is proper reform but I can't see the UK accepting the need to privatise the NHS any time soon because people automatically assume this means an American model of healthcare and imagine people going without because they can't afford it, ignoring the excellent systems in Germany, France, The Netherlands etc. I have lived and worked in those countries as a low earner (minimum wage or less) and received great healthcare either completely free or at very low and affordable cost even on my meagre income.

TFBundy Tue 26-Feb-19 14:49:04

We do spend less as a % of GDP compared to other European countries, which is why people often say it is "underfunded". However, in most comparable countries there is an element of co-pay usually on a sliding scale according to means, in addition to "government" money, so it's comparing apples and oranges really. It's also not clear whether "social care" is included in that figure or not.

It seems nuts to keep hosing money into the NHS without fixing the leaks. I think every patient has some anecdotal experience of waste - mine was the scissors that a procurement bod had decided were cheaper to buy in packs with dressings, meaning that 7 or 8 dressings were wasted each time scissors were needed on the ward....

Even the fact that every appointment requires 5 or 6 letters to be arranged (and reorganised, as is the NHS custom) increases costs massively.

When budgets increase, I have seen trusts spend on artwork and other aesthetics while patients endure horrible conditions on the wards. Terrible management decisions are made every day.

DH (NHS doctor) works for an unusual hospital that is consistently performing at or below budget. Result: he (and every other consultant) is issued with a brand new iPad for DS every year.

Meanwhile, the University hospital up the road is in special measures....

LittlePaintBox Tue 26-Feb-19 15:02:53

This is exactly how the Tories want us to think - NHS shortages are the fault of the NHS, preferably 'managers'. All we need now is for someone to cry BRING BACK MATRON! - preferably a matron looking just like Hattie Jacques.

If this patient had arrived home shivering because they hadn't been covered up, we'd all be hearing about it.

There are no economies that can make up the budget shortfall that has been planned in by the government.

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 15:11:42

Oh so there must be huge amounts of fraud because some crap TV programme says so. I was hoping for some real evidence.

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 15:12:25

And the Daily Fail as well. Not buying it.

TFBundy Tue 26-Feb-19 15:17:00

"The Tories" are not a homogenous group (and even if they were, I doubt they could agree on what to have for tea based on their present performance, never mind how to systematically dismantle the UK health service.

Plenty of patients arrive home shivering now. Or they shiver in corridors backed up to kingdom come because there are no beds. (My 93 year old gdad a couple of weeks spent 14 hours there before being placed on a ward with 3 dementia patients and deprived of sleep for a week). That isn't budget-related - it's bad management, inadequate planning and staff being inured to patients' suffering. We allow the NHS to be shit by expecting so little of it.

I would happily pay more for a decent health service, but not through tax (too much pissed up the wall) and not without major reform (because we are sleepwalking towards the US system when we could be embracing a far superior European social insurance one).

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed Tue 26-Feb-19 15:24:03

I see money wasted at eye watering levels all the time

NHS culture (waste, let’s look into it, meetings held, an inquiry, an inquiry into the inquiry and so it goes on no one is held accountable) and our reliance on the NHS (can it really cover all aspects of healthcare like it was promised when medicine has advanced beyond what was thought possible) without wanting to really pay they much more into our health system is the issue

The NHS needs to go and replaced by systems that work better like France has but we shall be paying considerably more

BartonHollow Tue 26-Feb-19 15:30:19

Having spent a lot of time in and outside the NHS I could tell you stories of waste to send your head spinning

PatchworkElmer Tue 26-Feb-19 15:35:30

In contrast, I literally had to beg for a towel to use after a shower when DS was in SCBU. Was made to feel like I was really taking the mickey. A bit of kindness and common sense at that time in my life would’ve been very much appreciated.

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 15:36:28

We all know about the stories of waste. There is appalling management in some parts of the NHS, most of it in the higher echelons. As soon as an NHS trust goes into special measures management consultants and turnaround experts are called in to throw good money after bad when the staff on the ground know exactly how money could be saved. But the fact remains that it simply hasn’t got enough money or staff.

As s

TFBundy Tue 26-Feb-19 15:54:33

If £125 billion (that is about 10p of every £ of GDP) is not enough, how much would be?

Likewise, it's already the third (?) largest employer in the world. We are a tiny island. How is that possible? Why isn't it enough?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that people with the means need to pay more. I just don't think it's credible to keep the current funding model.

EssexGurl Tue 26-Feb-19 16:08:03

The One Show ran a huge report on this a few years ago. All about the waste of not reclaiming walking frames, sticks etc. But even with that publicity they couldn’t get hospitals to want them back. It is utter madness but there is no system in place, from what I recall, for logging what has gone out and getting it back.

When I needed so crutches after a private operation, the hospital billed my insurer for them. I will need another op in a few years, so have held onto them. Won’t be charged twice.

Jux Tue 26-Feb-19 16:29:52

I think it must be different for hospitals than for community services. My physio has just given me a heled walking frame (they cost about £400) and said if it's not right for me she'll take it back for someone else.

OlennasWimple Tue 26-Feb-19 16:33:41

The system needs to be set up to enable the return of items and whatever needs to happen to check them over, sanitise them and re-use them

This would surely save the NHS money and certainly help save the planet - we make too much, we waste too much, we need to start thinking differently

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius Tue 26-Feb-19 17:02:07

”The bedding that they used every day in the hospital would be designed to be disinfected without disintegrating. I'm not sure that the bedding used to transport the patients to the hospital in an ambulance would be the same. The latter would probably be warmer and not necessarily made of the same material.”

The blankets used in the ambulances have to be properly washed too, @Dungeondragon15. I’m sure they are just as robust and washable as the blankets used on the wards.

Graphista Tue 26-Feb-19 17:06:28

It's for infection control reasons.

More expensive to clean to the right level than to dispose of and the costs of infection occurring are HUGE! It's a massive, expensive pita dealing with bugs caused by things like this.

There is a major issue with imo corrupt practices in procurement but then it suits the tory agenda in making the Nhs at least appear if not actually be ineffective/wasteful.

It's a combination of underfunding and wasteful practices imo

The tories want us thinking the Nhs isn't fit for purpose and judging by some responses on this thread they're succeeding.

Dietcokemegafan you might accept private test results etc there's numerous posts on here by mners who's Gp's refused to even discuss the possibility.

Ciarcel - the reason many of us fear this govt taking us into an American healthcare system is because they've vested interests in American healthcare companies particularly insurers, they've been meeting with and discussing how this could be done while having far fewer similar meetings/discussions with healthcare experts from other countries. It's not an unfounded fear.

TFBundy I agree I get annoyed too at the frivolities like artwork when basics aren't being covered. Also things like the scissor issue. That's the type of poor procurement decisions I'm meaning.

pineappletower Tue 26-Feb-19 17:11:07

A hospital blanket would only need to be placed in the laundry hamper with all the other washing. A walk to the sluice is all that's required of the nurse.

YANBU. FWIW the 'looking at you like you handed him dog poo' is the other reason the NHS isn't what it was. Caring is central to the profession, yet appears in such scarcity it's terrifying.

SalrycLuxx Tue 26-Feb-19 17:24:16

I do work for the NHS. It’s wasteful, inefficient and riddled with problems. Horrifically so.

And we should be fighting against the failure to reuse items. We consume far more planetary resources than there are available for each year. This needs to stop. And if that means reusing crutches, that’s what we should be doing.

Iamnobirdandnonetensnaresme Tue 26-Feb-19 17:25:14

Why on earth do people think that a hospital would want a used commode designed for single patient use?
If you have used a commode in hospital you would see they are built with infection control in mind - not the home use ones.
These are also generally supplied by an outside company not from the hospital and would be labelled up with how to return.

Blankets generally do not actually belong to the hospital they are rented from a laundry company.

Look at the items you have - if they have a label like mediequip that is who should collect it
If it looks like it can easily be cleaned then take it back.

Syringe drivers and other medical devices need to be returned.

icanthelpyou Tue 26-Feb-19 17:28:23

They’re not made up stories, be it in the daily mail or not. People have been prosecuted.

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 17:38:37

Just because people have been prosecuted for fraud in thr NHS doesn’t make it a widespread problem. Still not got any hard evidence I see.

WikkiTikkiWoo Tue 26-Feb-19 18:07:03

8a's DO NOT earn 70k!

But a non clinical 8a temp??? 😮 😮 😮 😮 I can't even imagine a role a non clinical band 8 temp would be needed outside a few very specialised technical roles.

icanthelpyou Tue 26-Feb-19 18:10:28

Aside from the tv programme and articles and prosecutions hmm Widespread enough for it to be reported on.

Dungeondragon15 Tue 26-Feb-19 18:14:00

Blankets generally do not actually belong to the hospital they are rented from a laundry company.

That's true. They often use outside companies for linen services.
Regarding waste, there is a lot but patient themselves a responsible for a great proportion of it. I think medicines waste accounts for about £300 million a year. The waste of an odd blanket (which could be reused anyway( seems negligible in comparison.

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 18:14:25

I work in a hospital
We do not have spare rooms free to store dirty broken equipment and do not have staff to clean it.
We pay some contractors to take it away clean it and return it and often its just cheaper to buy it brand new!

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 18:19:06

Yes a syringe driver is owned and serviced by the Trust/hospital

Imagine if everyone returned their commodes to the hospital where would you put them all - covered in infectious bodily fluids?!! shock it is not viable to do that

We do take crutches back and refurb them but we get our independent living aids from an independent living aid company and they are responsible for them

Also the air mattresses need to be replaced every so often. They are not bought they are usually rented now. Used to be hospitals bought them then had no way of disposing of them properly so end up in a cupboard somewhere all dirty and useless. These items have a shelf life and can become health hazards - I wouldn’t actually WANT them in an otherwise clean hospital... would people really want to be admitted to a ward that had a hoard of filthy bodily fluid covered equipment in the space where a bed could go?!

Alsohuman Tue 26-Feb-19 18:19:54

@icanhelpyou, I’m not surprised you can’t supply any statistics for fraud in the NHS. I can’t find any at all. Forgive me if I can’t find a TV programme and the Daily Fail a reliable source.

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 18:23:30

There is safeguards for fraud in my trust

All time sheets are electronics and only handled by a manager

All expenses are the same

All purchasing is authorised by managers are varying levels - under £5k and over £5k

Monthly budget meetings to spot any discrepancies

Most trusts are in such tight reins everything is scrutinised by the CCG monthly and everything accounted for

Agency staff is all electronic now too

I think the only fraud that can take place now is minimal. I’ve worked in the nhs for 20 years and it was rife years ago when it was paper based with people fiddling time sheets. Really not easy to do that now

CQC and CCG pressure means it’s much harder

CluedoAddict Tue 26-Feb-19 18:26:45

Our hospital send any equipment abroad. It seems such a waste when our own country is on its knees.

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 18:28:46

C Diff kills so many people here is a 27 page document on how to manage it

And ‘single use’ is very much how we manage to manage infectious diseases

www.nhsdg.scot.nhs.uk/Departments_and_Services/Infection_Control/Infection_Control_Files/Local_Policies/Specific_Infections/Policy_for_the_Management_of_Clostridium_Difficile.pdf

My grandmother died of C diff. She wasn’t fatally ill in hospital and it was their poor cleaning standards and dirty equipment which killed her. It kills people. All. The. Time. You may see it as septicaemia on a death certificate. It’s often due to a HAI

CiarCel Tue 26-Feb-19 18:43:23

I see someone said that the UK have been talking to US healthcare providers and this is the concern about proposed reform to the NHS (sorry for slow response and if this disrupts the current flow of the conversation) but similar private providers are functioning in Europe and the services are still free/very heavily state subsidised where not free. I admit to not having lived in the UK for quite some time so am behind on the discourse - all I know is that I have many friends in the UK with strong "No to NHS privitisation"/ "Save our NHS" feelings/banners etc. (by which they mean no private providers) yet it is clear that the system is crumbling. No politicians in 2018/19 want to touch the subject of the need to switch to European models where there are always private providers involved even though the "customer" does not pay.

PookieDo Tue 26-Feb-19 18:50:30

I think there is confusion about what part of the system is crumbling too

They are trying to get people out of the hospitals and cared for at home so most of the money now is put into ‘patient at home’ and community services. The big push is on patient self management. We know the top of the pyramid of patients who are very old and/or frail need the services the most so we are trying to push out the younger more healthy patients from the system to free up resources for the older/frail. This is why it looks like it’s all gone wrong, because people who don’t usually rely on the system struggle with it when they do go into it, whereas those who need it the most/frequently are being treated and seen.

Different parts of the system are struggling - social care being so underfunded puts huge pressure on the NHs as people who ought to be at home are not, therefore means other people have delays to treatment

FraggleRocking Tue 26-Feb-19 20:26:19

Not that this seems to be the point of the thread, but it seems that some people seem to think fraud in the NHS genuinely doesn’t occur anymore. It does. There is an entire department dedicated to stopping it. You’d probably only be aware of it if you had cause to report it.
cfa.nhs.uk/fraud-prevention/what-is-nhs-fraud

DangermousesSidekick Tue 26-Feb-19 21:09:21

Isn't it remarkable how all of this desperation to cut costs, e.g. by outsourcing random tasks and forcing people to work for less - even forcing what used to be paid jobs to become voluntary, so no one knows what they're doing - is actually increasing costs and waste, and delivering poorer service? On all levels: on an organisational level, in the service to individuals, and in the cost to our economy as a whole in forcing the cost of labour down, resulting in no one having money to match our rising living costs.

I wish everyone would put the ideology aside and look at what is actually happening. While they're at it they can have a look at systems thinking e.g. vanguard-method.net/2017/11/do-shared-services-bake-bread/ But no, that would be pragmatic and sensible and we mustn't do that, we have to focus on appearances instead.

OhTheRoses Tue 26-Feb-19 21:18:25

Pookiedoo I see the point you are making but hospitals are filthy anyway. I had DS1 at what was then a brand new flagship hospital. The midwife told me to have a bath (it would mean the pee didn't sting). So I tried. The bath was blood stained and full of pubes, the floor was filthy. I trundled back and was told "that's how women leave them" and instructed yo use the vim and green paper towels to clean it. There must have been six midwives chatting as she said it. No emergencies it was Christmas day and my baby was still in SCBU.

Seriously a woman who had had a difficult birth five hours earlier and they told me to have a bath, then to clean it first.

Chelsea & Westminster 1995! All gleaming on the surface.

One of my local trusts has recently published a 132 page equality report. In their clinics they call men as Mr John Brown; women as Jane Brown. How much did that report cost? A report that has no impact on sexist practices?

SnagAndChips Tue 26-Feb-19 22:39:08

I'm in Aus.
Not long after I moved here I broke my leg.
My private medical insurance paid for a man to come to me at home and check my needs (and fit me with a removable cast). Then he said when I was ready for crutches to go to a pharmacy and rent them!
I was a bit shocked but hey- I paid a deposit and a weekly rental, and made sure i returned them. It worked well, although was surprising.

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