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Mansplaining

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Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 00:53:56

Just had a discussion with the ever-lovely DH where I mentioned that a female friend of mine (an eminent Professor in her field) was a target of mansplaining via a live TV interview recently.

DH exploded at me. Mansplaining apparently isn't real and I shouldn't think that it is...

Hmmm.... I think he may be doing it to me. Dick smile

RedHatsDoNotSuitMe Sat 23-Feb-19 01:03:58

ask him what it means grin

rosablue Sat 23-Feb-19 01:07:35

So what did he call the mansolaining treatment your clever Prof friend was on the end of?

Surfingtheweb Sat 23-Feb-19 01:09:44

Oh it's a thing, it's definitely a thing 😂

PersonaNonGarter Sat 23-Feb-19 01:11:50

Love this. Too funny. Ask him to explain it to you in words of one syllable.

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 01:15:50

He really is something else. Apparently mansplaining is a way in which 'they' are trying to bring down the scientists. The male ones. What the actual fuck?!?!

I then tried to explain to him what it meant and was told that I clearly didn't understand and that what it really meant was what he said.

Yes. Yes, me with my double degree, postgrad qualifications and highly-skilled job doesn't get it. I'm clearly so dumb... ffs!

justilou1 Sat 23-Feb-19 01:25:53

Maybe you should explain (using very small words, of course) that until he realises that he’s just mansplained to you that celibacy is a thing, too.

justilou1 Sat 23-Feb-19 01:26:14

And womansplain celibacy as well...

CheerioHunter Sat 23-Feb-19 01:32:03

God, another example of womoaning grin

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 01:33:38

Noooo. Clearly I can't tell him as he's just right and I'm dumb to buy into the concept. Then leap to a ten minute rant about what I 'should be' thinking and how I'm clearly misguided.

I think that I'll think for myself, actually. It's done me rather well in my professional life, thank you very much.

Personal life - maybe I need to question my judgement. Maybe someone should tell me how/what I should do in that area

(...smacks my head repeatedly against a wall...)

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 02:35:17

Message deleted by MNHQ. PBP and troll

Monty27 Sat 23-Feb-19 04:35:47

Womansplain and womoaning
gringrin

Monty27 Sat 23-Feb-19 04:41:04

You sound very arrogant OP. Not for me to say, your DP sounds inebriated tired as in not thinking clearly confused

BitOfFun Sat 23-Feb-19 04:49:02

But it ISN'T the same as being patronising: it is specifically referring to the socially-inculcated sense of superiority that men demonstrate towards women in a patriarchal system which privileges male bletherings over women's education, experience, and expertise.

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 04:55:23

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sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 04:58:29

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echt Sat 23-Feb-19 05:05:09

Apparently it does, *shared ThisMonth*:

Can't quite decide whether your'e being too lazy thick or goady not have googled this:

www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Womansplaining

It is a knee jerk response to the more pervasive phenomenon of mansplaining, white on black racism, men on women sexism.

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 05:14:14

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Mummyoflittledragon Sat 23-Feb-19 05:19:46

sharedthismonth
Sounds as if you are blethering yourself.

In society today what males and male bodied people say carries more weight than that of females and female bodied people. Their labour attracts more money and they are more likely to be promoted and offered more senior / lucrative roles. Society is set up so that men have more of a right to speak their minds, impose, their views whilst expecting women to appease, back down and compromise.

We are living in a patriarchy. Mansplaining is a useful term. Not one I’ve yet used myself and I understand exactly what the op means and I really don’t understand these comments.

echt Sat 23-Feb-19 05:23:04

I'm not 'lazy thick' although I do like the term (you should hyphenate it)
No, it needed a comma, so we're both wrong.

Urbandictionary isn't usually seen as a reliable source You're the one who couldn't be arsed to look it up.

Some lazy-thick posters attacked someone on a thread here last week when they described something as misandrous. Apparently it "doesn't exist" and simply mentioning it is goady. Was it you or is there a common theme?

Nah, because 1) it wasn't me, as you would know if you could be bothered looking back the thread you cited, 2) It is, apparently a word.

echt Sat 23-Feb-19 05:28:18

Oh, and welcome to MN, sharedThisMonth.

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 05:31:54

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sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 05:43:02

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pissedonatrain Sat 23-Feb-19 06:05:13

@sharedThisMonth
Are you an expert on this topic?

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 06:26:07

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saccade Sat 23-Feb-19 06:31:37

sharedThismonth - the ad hominem attack sort of belies your security in your position. Nevertheless:

You said:

"Except, it isn't true. Men might be more likely to have more senior and lucrative roles but I'll happily keep asking for concrete proof of how this is the "patriarchy" and not men (on a population level) being more adept at certain roles and these being better paid."

Where is your proof that men's greater adeptness to their roles is correlated with their higher pay?

You said:

"Agreeableness (I'll stick with my theme) is clearly less desirable when making large-value deals or managing large numbers of people. Men exhibit this trait more than women. Successful men exhibit this trait more than less successful men. Successful women exhibit this trait more than unsuccessful men and most women. Does this make sense?"

Apart from your choice of the word 'clearly' - where is your proof that 'agreeableness' is a less desirable trait when making large-value deals or managing large numbers of people?
How are you defining 'agreeableness'?

You said:

"Men tend to need less sleep enabling them to do more (like Lady Thatcher)"

I've found that's derived from this study:
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/women-need-more-sleep-because-of-their-complex-brains-research-suggests-a6925266.html

In which it is noted:

'Women tend to require more sleep than men because of their “complex” brains, according to research.
However, men who have complex jobs which involve a lot of “decision-making and lateral thinking” are also likely to need more sleep than the average male.'

You said:

"they tend to have less regard for others' feelings enabling them to make difficult decisions."

How are you defining difficult? How are you judging the outcome of the decisions, compared to those made by people who have more regard for others' feelings? Are you saying people with more regard for others' feelings have less 'difficult-decision' -making capacity, or that the outcome of those 'difficult decisions' is poorer? If the latter - again, by what standard are you measuring the outcome of those decisions? If the former - can you elaborate what this looks like in practice, with reference to studies?

You said:

We live in a capitalist meritocracy. That might not suit all women (or all men) but don't blame society for being mean and unfair. Be better.

Let's unpick that. What would a capitalist meritocracy reward? What traits are meretricious?

I would love to know your thoughts.

araiwa Sat 23-Feb-19 06:32:39

Are only experts allowed to post?

saccade Sat 23-Feb-19 06:38:18

- and, re your comment on 'agreeableness' - how are you defining 'successful'?

BruceAndNosh Sat 23-Feb-19 06:42:51

I'm not sure about the precise meaning of mansplaining, but I know what a pompous git is

picklemepopcorn Sat 23-Feb-19 06:47:03

How ironic.

Soubriquet Sat 23-Feb-19 06:51:56

show him this

A man tried to mansplain a womans anatomy. And when proved wrong by a gynaecologist, insisted he was still right as it was more known as vagina than vulva and refused to accept he was wrong

redexpat Sat 23-Feb-19 06:51:59

Shared wants an example of mansplaining.

www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/man-tries-to-explain-what-a-vagina-is-to-a-gynaecologist-it-does-not-go-well/

redexpat Sat 23-Feb-19 06:52:51

X post Soubriquet!

Soubriquet Sat 23-Feb-19 06:54:11

X post indeed gringrin

Great minds think alike wink

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 06:57:41

Oh.. as a corollary to saccades's post - if being agreeable = success then how does having less regard for others' feelings enabling them to make difficult decisions. square with that?

Agreeably lacking in empathy? Can't see that myself, but I suppose it does rely on your definition of agreeable.

AintNobodyHereButUsReindeer Sat 23-Feb-19 07:04:56

Here is a good article about mansplaining, it's from 2016 but still relevant! (It's not a DM link)

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 07:09:27

“DH exploded at me. Mansplaining apparently isn't real and I shouldn't think that it is...”

Exploding is a ridiculous reaction. Did he really do this?

That said, “mansplaining” is a media construct which perpetuates divide and conquer. The fundamamental behind it is the concept that men are exclusively patronising towards women.

Anyone who thinks that’s true should try working where I work, or try being a man out and about in daily live with his children.

Shoxfordian Sat 23-Feb-19 07:11:54

Here's some more examples from buzzfeed

www.google.com/amp/s/www.buzzfeed.com/amphtml/beatrizserranomolina/mansplaining-work-stories

Is your husband usually such a knob op?

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:12:34

Message deleted by MNHQ. PBP and troll

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 07:12:52

“By putting 'man' in front of any adjective, you're making it sexist.”

Indeed. Using protective chracteristics as a pejorative obviously demonstrates prejudice and is quite wrong.

Anyone who chooses to overlook that because they quite like it is letting themselves down.

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:14:45

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maddening Sat 23-Feb-19 07:17:14

Sharedthismonth - are you male or female?

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:17:25

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Thegoodthere Sat 23-Feb-19 07:17:54

All the men getting their dicks in knots over this thread are hilarious.

Denying mansplaining while actually doing it.

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:19:34

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StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 07:19:38

@sharedThisMonth
😀

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 07:20:58

“All the men getting their dicks in knots over this thread are hilarious.

Denying mansplaining while actually doing it.”

Except that women are saying the same thing. Try again.

SaturdayNext Sat 23-Feb-19 07:21:56

I love the bit in that article about mansplaining to a gynaecologist where Bullen says "But it is interesting that dictionaries do not record the broader meaning of vagina.". The gynaecologist says he's wrong, hundreds of owners of vaginas say he's wrong, even the dictionary says he's wrong, but all of that is just "interesting" and he's still right. Classic!

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 07:25:19

Is that what I said? If I did then it was a typo. Pretty clear if you read the rest of my post. It is. How a typo? I double checked that Saccade had quoted you correctly!

I still wonder at the cognitive dissonance of those two statements!

That last part was unecessary, don't you think? You could have made any point you wanted to without having to sneer!

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:34:41

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sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:35:18

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MerdedeBrexit Sat 23-Feb-19 07:35:53

Personal life - maybe I need to question my judgement. Maybe someone should tell me how/what I should do in that area Sounds as if you are perfectly capable of doing that yourself, with nobody patronising you, or mansplaining or womansplaining it to you, Grammarist. FWIW, if this is typical of your "ever-lovely" DH's behaviour, if I were you, I wouldn't want to be living with him.

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:36:04

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Thegoodthere Sat 23-Feb-19 07:37:55

@streetwise, which women?

DisrespectfulAdultFemale Sat 23-Feb-19 07:39:22

I have autism. When I mentioned this to a male colleague, he mansplained autism and the diagnostic process to me.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 07:40:51

“I have autism. When I mentioned this to a male colleague, he mansplained autism and the diagnostic process to me.”

How is the gender of the person who did this relevant?

sharedThisMonth Sat 23-Feb-19 07:41:44

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

recrudescence Sat 23-Feb-19 07:42:51

I think manslpaining absolutely is a thing. The problem, IMO, is it’s application to almost any male utterance that a woman doesn’t like.

recrudescence Sat 23-Feb-19 07:43:35

*its

Mummyoflittledragon Sat 23-Feb-19 07:47:00

shared thismonth
I ignored you. Did I?! Or perhaps I was asleep. I read a brilliant article about how traditionally male roles once taken over by females consistently attracted a lower salary from that point. It was American possibly and cited jobs like janitor (trad male) vs housekeeper / cleaner. It discussed the massive disparity between nurses salaries (when several years of training and a degree are required) vs those of doctors - higher trained for sure but with a disproportionately high salary due to being male dominated. Then there were very basic, unskilled jobs - example I remember was ticket collector, which used to attract a largish wage until women started doing it. How legal positions attract lower salaries until recently with the influx of women. How IT used to be poorly paid and attracted salaries similar to those of a basic admin job until men started applying.

It was very interesting and I’m chronically ill and too tired to look for it. But yes, it’s definitely a thing even if you don’t wish to engage in the discussion. You need to look at history to find it. Not just present day.

Boom76 Sat 23-Feb-19 07:47:53

recrudescence

Totally agree

Mummyoflittledragon Sat 23-Feb-19 07:48:01

That should say legal positions used to attract higher salaries.

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 07:56:18

@StreetwiseHercules - yes, DH exploded at me. Your comment asking whether he actually did that seems rather unnecessary and rude. We were having a normal voice-level conversation until that point and he went ballistic. I'm not too sure why you felt that you had to question that.

The context that we were discussing was a classic case of mansplaining why my friend had had her research explained back to her incorrectly. She's a world-leading expert in her specific field. But apparently my DH doesn't think that the mansplaining is a real thing. She's had that kind of behaviour levelled at her for years as she is a highly-qualified female working within a predominately male field.

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 07:59:10

@MerdedeBrexit Unfortunately this is exactly what he's like at the moment.

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 08:00:27

Ooh! Why did shared get deleted?

There wasn't anything in the post to me that warranted deletion?

And I quoted it... so my post shpuld have been deleted too!

What is happening? Can we not have a robust deabte / argument / nit picking session any more?

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 08:00:49

@Shoxfordian Yes. Unfortunately.

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 08:03:08

oh, looks like i disagreed with the wrong person. It does doesn't it?

Wasn't me... and I still think my post quoting one of your deleted posts should have gone too - if there was anything in yours that warranted deletion!

I don't mind arguments, I do mind weird moderation.

@MNHQ What happened?

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 08:03:58

I've only just got back on the thread so I'm not exactly sure what Shared wrote that warranted deletion. I'm quite annoyed though about how he/she questioned whether my DH had 'exploded'. Seemed a very unnecessary thing to pick on!

Mummyoflittledragon Sat 23-Feb-19 08:06:00

I’ve reported the posts not yet deleted by shared this month. After posting my comment, I also thought about how their posts were rather off and did an advanced search. Anyway. It was so clearly a man imo.

SaturdayNext Sat 23-Feb-19 08:09:15

sharedThisMonth

Don't be disingenuous, it doesn't work.. There's a couple of very obvious differences between a liver and a vulva in terms of the proportion of the population owning them and their siting in the body. If I tried to tell men that they had got the terminology relating to their genitalia wrong in circumstances where both experts and the dictionary told me I was mistaken, I would look equally ridiculous.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:14:25

@StreetwiseHercules - yes, DH exploded at me. Your comment asking whether he actually did that seems rather unnecessary and rude. We were having a normal voice-level conversation until that point and he went ballistic. I'm not too sure why you felt that you had to question that. ”

I was just interested in what constituted “exploding”. Sounds quite unusual. What an extreme and odd response from your partner.

I was patronised yesterday over my own area of expertise, in an area where she has none. By a woman. It happens fair regularly as there are a lot of men and women in the office where I work.

Some people are just patronising cunts. I don’t align it to gender because that would be wrong. Because generalising about protected characteristics is wrong.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:16:25

Looks like misconduct at mumsnet towers. None of the deleted posts by Sharedthismonth were contrary to the guidelines.

SaturdayNext Sat 23-Feb-19 08:16:26

Shared's posts seem to have largely disappeared off AS. MN would appear to know something about him that we don't.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:17:51

Previous banned user? I see.

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 08:17:56

Ah. Yes the deletions now say PBP and Troll!

Soubriquet Sat 23-Feb-19 08:19:03

For anyone who says mansplaining doesn’t work...this is a clear and classic example where a man is putting his nose in where it isn’t needed or wanted..especially since he has NO experience at all with it

My brother-in-law once tried to tell me which tampons were the best to buy, and which bras were the most comfortable. LOL. As if he had any personal experience to form his well-thought-out opinion! Haha. His arguments were based on his sisters' and girlfriends' preferences.

MichaelMumsnet (MNHQ) Sat 23-Feb-19 08:19:24

Hi all,
It looks like sharedthismonth was a PBP and not here with the best of intentions - so we've banned and deleted their posts. Apologies for the holes in the thread.

Thegoodthere Sat 23-Feb-19 08:20:20

Shared is a PBP, folks.

Women sometimes patronise men. Men sometimes patronise people who happen to be women. Large numbers of men patronise women because they believe women are generally stupid and need a man to explain things to them. THAT is mansplaining.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:21:45

“Large numbers of men patronise women because they believe women are generally stupid and need a man to explain things to them. THAT is mansplaining.”

Maybe 50 years ago. The society I live in is not like that anymore and hasn’t been for quite some time.

Thegoodthere Sat 23-Feb-19 08:24:13

And how can you POSSIBLY know that when you have no chance of experiencing it as a man?

Kunkka Sat 23-Feb-19 08:34:47

I totally get that there are still many men who still underestimate or disrespect women and their knowledge and achievements in their respective fields.

But I get why some men react defensive when confronted with the term.
It shuts you and your opinion down on the bases of your sex. Something you can't control.
If I'm wrong on something and if I'm too stupid to see that I got carried away in a conversation, which might have happend in the past, I would appreciate to just be called out as a person. Not as a member of a group.

MorningsEleven Sat 23-Feb-19 08:35:33

I think it's born into them. My eight year old occasionally tries to mansplain stuff to me - it doesn't go down well.

DH has almost given up since I told him that I turn my mind completely sky blue, stop listening and go into a meditative state when he starts on. It's quite relaxing.

saccade Sat 23-Feb-19 08:38:39

Oh darn I had just spent 20 minutes dissecting his subsequent riposte with surgical precision. Essentially his first post was

'This is clearly true because I say so'

and when challenged he returned with

'This is very clearly true because it is obviously self evident'.

Literally zero data to back anything up.

Interestingly he claimed to have spent 10 years 'at uni in Computational Linguistics'. Surely anyone who'd presumably gone onto postgrad and research would have something other than emotion to loosely link black and white deterministic assertions to GSCE-level pop psychology terms? Unless he spent 10 years getting his undergrad? That's a genuine question by the way - how can you spend 10 years in academia and be that unaware about how unrobustly you've drawn conclusions?

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 08:39:13

@StreetwiseHercules
It unfortunately isn't an unusual or extreme reaction. Happens a lot in my house and I have many female friends who are experiencing similar with their partners. Lucky for you that you think this is odd.

I've had cases of mansplaining levelled at me over the years and it has been a very unpleasant experience each and every time. Yes, there's a huge difference between someone being a patronising twat (irrespective of their gender) and mansplaining and it's a term that definitely doesn't fit all 'man being a condescending idiot' situations.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:43:06

“And how can you POSSIBLY know that when you have no chance of experiencing it as a man?”

Because I live in the world.

Mummyoflittledragon Sat 23-Feb-19 08:43:12

Streetwise
It is happening all around us and it is happening in different ways. It is happening every time basic biology is ignored.

JacquesHammer Sat 23-Feb-19 08:43:27

grammarist did your OH start with “well actually....”

echt Sat 23-Feb-19 08:44:08

Because I live in the world

Of course.

JacquesHammer Sat 23-Feb-19 08:44:22

I mean, if you’re a bloke and you don’t mansplain then great, criticism of mansplaining isn’t about you.

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 08:45:51

Might help to remember ...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=juTeHsKPWhY

Grammarist Sat 23-Feb-19 08:47:05

@JacquesHammer Yes. Yes he did! grin

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:47:26

I have a son and a daughter. I won’t accept either of the growing up being gaslighted or having pejoratives attached to them because of their protected characteristics.

My son has none of this baggage. The first person to accuse him of mansplaining will get a vociferous response from me.

JacquesHammer Sat 23-Feb-19 08:48:58

The first person to accuse him of mansplaining will get a vociferous response from me

Rather than considering whether it was justified....?

“Vociferous response” Arf grin

JacquesHammer Sat 23-Feb-19 08:50:00

Grammarist grin

I wish I’d patented the phrase, I’d be rich wink

CuriousaboutSamphire Sat 23-Feb-19 08:50:01

The first person to accuse him of mansplaining will get a vociferous response from me. Surely you have brought him up to be able to stand on his own 2 feet?

EwItsAHooman Sat 23-Feb-19 08:52:26

Maybe 50 years ago. The society I live in is not like that anymore and hasn’t been for quite some time.

Ask any woman who has ever been in a work-based meeting how many times she has made a contribution to that meeting only to have a man then pipe up "I think what she's trying to say is...." followed by a repeat of exactly what she's just said.

Advanced Search the many MN threads where male posters have arrived with much pomp and circumstance to explain to us why we are wrong. In particular any threads discussing violence against women and specifically the thread where a male user offered to teach everyone here computer skills.

Google the many examples out there of men getting involved in situations that have absolutely nothing to do with them and being patronising to the women dealing with that situation.

Because I live in the world.

As a man.

NotaTrollorPBP Sat 23-Feb-19 08:52:38

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

StreetwiseHercules Sat 23-Feb-19 08:53:30

“Surely you have brought him up to be able to stand on his own 2 feet?”

He is 6 years old.

Theducksarenotmyfriends Sat 23-Feb-19 08:53:53

Saccade - you're a hero grin

Thegoodthere Sat 23-Feb-19 08:54:10

I do wish you'd stop wittering on about "protected characteristics".

If you're as forward to thinking as you claim (ha) then your son won't mansplain, will he? However your daughter will experience a shitload of misogyny and street harassment, so please don't belittle her experience when she does. K thx.

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