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To think db has been scammed by his ex

(362 Posts)
lurchersrool Thu 21-Feb-19 21:31:16

Db is going through a divorce. There are two children involved who he sees regularly and the divorce was triggered by his infidelity - though he's single now and insists the marriage was in trouble for years before he cheated which was certainly how it looked from the outside tbf.

Anyway, the point is there was fault on both sides but I feel he has been royally shafted by the way the finances have been dealt with. He and I were both given £80k by df in order to buy property. That was about 12 years ago, just before the crash. Db and exsil had just got together but they bought the property together, despite df raising some concerns about it. I don't know all the ins and outs but they had a fair bit of work done on the property which involved re-mortgaging and a couple of years ago moved to a bigger house.

Apparently the situation now is that the amount of equity is so little that there is no point in selling and they have no other assets so db can't get his £80k, or even half of it back. Ex sil has said the most the bank can lend her is £20k, and even that she's saying will partly need to cover her legal costs, so he's going to end up with a pittance. I think it's a joke. She has a well-paid job while db has no real career as such. He has back problems from an injury he got years ago and has always struggled to hold down permanent jobs. He looked after one of the dc for a year as a baby so ex sil could go back to work, but now he's being left with nothing, well nothing aside from a share of her pension but he obviously won't get that for years so nothing really tangible.

It just seems so wrong. He refused to get a solicitor although I had offered to help pay, and I know df is beside himself worrying about db's future. He thought the £80k would at least see him in secure housing but now it seems to have gone and db is back to shitty bedsits. To make it worse she is now asking for maintenance which I think is just spiteful. Normally I always think men should pay for their kids but this woman has a well-paid job and db literally has nothing. AIBU to think she shouldn't be putting in this claim and db has been treated really badly here?

frazzledasarock Sat 23-Feb-19 21:16:19

The NRP should get a job, why should the RP be paying grown ass man who is not contributing anything towards the RP’s life anything?

And having been thro the courts for child contact, the courts don’t just choose the mother to have contact, they’d have made an assessment and taken the children’s current lifestyle into account and the children’s wishes and feelings before awarding residency to one parent.

In the case that OP has posted the NRP is a feckless loser who has contributed very little financially to the family. The mother has residency probably because she did the main care, the ex husband didn’t have a job and contributed the sum of £80k 12 years ago and one years worth of childcare.
For that he gets a portion of his ex wife’s pension leaving behind a massive debt & two DC he is begrudging paying a fiver for.

And OP would like her ex sil to wear a hair shirt and self flagulate to show suitable misery at no longer being married to her useless ex anything else makes her a bitch.

DioneTheDiabolist Sat 23-Feb-19 21:15:00

If I had won the 150million Eurmillions, I would have given the father of each of my DC a million quid. I would still expect them to pay child support because paying child support, even if it's a nominal sum, is important to both the child and NRP.

That's hypothetical though. I didn't win.

frazzledasarock Sat 23-Feb-19 21:05:08

Micah, the OP’s brother will be paying a fiver for his children not hundreds as he’s not got a job and only if he’s claiming benefits, if he’s not claiming benefits his children will get nothing. CMS is the bare minimum.

leigh39 Sat 23-Feb-19 20:44:01

He had an affair on her which obviously broke the marriage up and he wouldn't of been in this position now if he wouldn't of been unfaithful I guess ... whether or not she has a well paid job she has the kids to look after whom her shares the responsibility for .. so he should pay for his kids regardless.... like you said there's no equity in the property And she still has bills to pay ... and has one income now ..... yes it's a shitter !! But it's life

Micah Sat 23-Feb-19 20:38:17

Personally, I would hope that any self-respecting parent would willingly make a financial contribution towards their child’s upbringing regardless of the financial circumstances of the other parent

And i would hope that any self respecting parent with several million would not expect or accept that contribution, especially if it meant the other parent struggled so much financially they couldn’t parent their child properly, or even provide suitable accomodation for overnights.

I think you’d have to be a special kind of spiteful to insist an ex paid you a couple of hundered pounds a month when you have several million.

Still, unlikely to happen. Odds of winning the lottery being miniscule and all.

CanILeavenowplease Sat 23-Feb-19 19:49:09

if rp won the lottery, nrp should still pay child maintenance

Personally, I would hope that any self-respecting parent would willingly make a financial contribution towards their child’s upbringing regardless of the financial circumstances of the other parent.

Micah Sat 23-Feb-19 18:41:36

I don’t know, it was hypothetical and not specific to the o/p’ s situation.

But you’re back to “cheating ex” - why should the children lose out on a relationship with a parent? It’s not about what happened in the adults relationship.

Which is why a good friend of mine has ended up in the o/p’s brothers situation. He has lost his house and children despite it being her cheating on him. He recognises that there isn’t enough money to split one house into two. He tried for rp but was told it always stays with the mother- they both had careers and worked full time so were equal parents.

If he won the lottery should he pay his “cheating ex”? Or apply for RP based on his ability to provide a better lifestyle? Or perhaps buy a house for his “cheating ex” to live in while the children are dependent so they can share custody.

It’s all hypothetical. But it doesn’t matter who cheated or who left who, it’s whether having two involved parents is best for the children.

GunpowderGelatine Sat 23-Feb-19 18:28:15

Well what's your suggestion Micah? Should the RP pay for their cheating ex to have a house?

Wakk Sat 23-Feb-19 18:15:09

She's going to end up doing better out of it compared to her cheating shitbag husband?

Good. So she should.

Micah Sat 23-Feb-19 18:10:53

No, i’m referring to a specific scenario by a pp where she stated that if rp won the lottery, nrp should still pay child maintenance.

I questioned whether that would be best for the children, going between a millionaire lifestyle and a dad who can’t even afford a suitable house for them to stay in.

GunpowderGelatine Sat 23-Feb-19 18:00:57

Or is it a case of dad should pay, and if he can’t afford to see the kids as well, tough?

No it's a case of the non-resident parent should pay, it just so happens they are usually Male. If he can't afford a house with a room or bed for them then yes it's tough that they probably can't stay over. It doesn't matter how much the non-resident parent has in their bank, it's 100% irrelevant. You're conflating RP/NRP with sex

If he won the lottery the kids could live with him, and he wouldn’t need to pay her anything. Or should he, so she can still have a relationship with her kids?

But they've established that she's the main carer and knows the children better and that's why she looks after them. You're conflating the amount of money a parent has with what is best for the child. Otherwise all these loaded ex husbands we hear about so often on MN, who are happy to fiddle their books and pay the bare minimum, would be their children's main careers, no?

Micah Sat 23-Feb-19 17:50:22

Both parents have equal rights to see their children. It’s about facilitating that relationship

Sorry, let me re word that.

Children have equal rights to see both parents.

Micah Sat 23-Feb-19 17:47:08

Well yes I would expect him to, but maintenance is for maintaining children, and if the RP is looking after the child 7 nights a week what would she be giving the NRP money for exactly if not for him to spend on himself?

So he can afford to buy a house with enough space so he can have overnights, buy decent food, heat, light, amentities they have at both homes?

Or is it a case of dad should pay, and if he can’t afford to see the kids as well, tough?

If he won the lottery the kids could live with him, and he wouldn’t need to pay her anything. Or should he, so she can still have a relationship with her kids?

Both parents have equal rights to see their children. It’s about facilitating that relationship.

GunpowderGelatine Sat 23-Feb-19 17:37:53

If it were him that won the lottery, you’d expect him to give her a big chunk, no? For the kids? Would you expect her to keep on living in her 3 bed terrace while he lived with his millions in a mansion?

Well yes I would expect him to, but maintenance is for maintaining children, and if the RP is looking after the child 7 nights a week what would she be giving the NRP money for exactly if not for him to spend on himself?

I think people really have a hard time remembering maintenance is for children not for exes, and if we changed the language around this maybe people would be less willing to sell children down the river

goldengummybear Sat 23-Feb-19 13:38:05

If they made the financially imprudent decision to overextend the mortgage, how do you know that they don't have debts? As SIL is the main earner, those debts will almost certainly be in her name. They both made the decision to pay for house improvements that didn't increase the house value by at least an equal amount. Why is your anger reserved for SIL? He's not been conned. House price rises aren't guaranteed never mind building work.

goldengummybear Sat 23-Feb-19 13:34:33

* the little bit of money db could pay won't. make. any. difference.* If it's so little then it won't be life changing for him either. Even if it's the minimum of £7pw at least he can look his children in the eyes.

swingofthings Sat 23-Feb-19 13:16:11

the little bit of money db could pay won't. make. any. difference. That's my point that people seem unable to understand
Oh it will! It might mean his kids, being able to go on a school trip, or getting kits for sports, or a musical instrument.

It might mean getting a mattress, better quality shoes, a more exciting birthday party etc...

Am totally puzzled why you think it won't make any difference! Because she can afford it all? Well even in that case, she can put it all in a saving account for them to use towards Uni or even the deposit towards a house later. It won't be wasted money and it is money he owes them as their dad. If he struggles, then he will have to figure out a way to earn more.

NWQM Sat 23-Feb-19 12:37:38

I totally get that you are worried for your brother. Are you sure though that you know the whole story? When we got together I had equity in the property and my husband had equity from the property he sold. When taking out the new joint mortgage we both had to sign to say we understood we were giving this away. That we understood that we would only have x equity in the future depending on markets. Did he really not understand what he was doing? He made choices - to most of us they now seem bad ones. It sounds as if she is buying him out for half the equity. That this is now only £20k is a shame for both do them. Not sure why he can’t use that to get somewhere decent to see his kids though? And why shouldn’t he have to pay something towards their upkeep - what do you perceive the threshold should be that his ex asks for that?

0rangeB0ttle Sat 23-Feb-19 12:22:43

If you DBs name is still on the mortgage and deeds of the house and still married, he still owns half. His children need somewhere to live. So I guess he needs to sort out a divorce, a job and a financial settlement.

Kismetjayn Sat 23-Feb-19 11:55:54

OP, I do understand how hard it is to retrain and get a new career. I'm doing it. While raising a child. Because when you have one, that's just what you have to do.

Working in a soul destroying from-home call centre job around DD to finance uni to one day get a career, in the process of separating from 'D'P who huffs and sighs that I'm taking advantage of him by asking for minimum maintenance, though I've been primary caregiver to DD since she was born so that he could grow his career.

According to men, paying any child support is being walked over, because they don't get to have custody...not that they want it because it's hard work. If you have custody and they pay maintenance, that's you taking everything from them because you're a selfish heartless bitch.

SchadenfreudePersonified Sat 23-Feb-19 11:03:02

if she wanted overnights I'm sure he would stay over,

Yes - that would work. hmm

LuaDipa Sat 23-Feb-19 08:56:15

Micah because in the situation you mention, the dw had given up her career and compromised her future earning potential by staying home to raise the kids. It would be unfair to disregard her contribution to the marriage.

In the op’s situation, her db took one year when the first dc (now age 7) was born. He hadn’t really worked since then, but he hasn’t stepped up to take care of the home and dc either. If he had been the one raising the dc so his wife could go to work I and most other posters would agree with you that he should have his lifestyle supported in recognition of what he had contributed. But I’m not actually sure this man has contributed anything at all.

Absofuckinglutely Sat 23-Feb-19 08:44:22

The cheating is irrelevant, legally speaking anyway, so let's leave that one alone.

They bought the property together. If he was concerned about the £80k, they should have had an agreement drawn up at that stage to protect his asset. That didn't happen.

The property became a marital asset. They remortgaged and have no equity left. Therefore the £80k is gone and the property has NO value as the bank owns the entirety of it and his ex wife will be left with that debt to pay off. I think you are confusing owning a property with no debt, to owning a property with 100% mortgage. She basically has major debt here, it is no longer an asset.

She worked more and earned more. I'm imagining that she now has the children living with her. She now has to share her pension with your brother (which I actually think she has been badly advised on, as if he is unable to pay maintenance, that should have been used as leverage against his entitlement to her pension).

I'm amazed you cannot see that your brother is not getting a bad deal. In many ways your ex sis in law is getting a far worse deal here. You also seem unconcerned about his obligation to support his children.
He sound like a feckless twat, frankly.

Micah Sat 23-Feb-19 08:32:47

OP your SIL could win £40million on the lottery tomorrow and your brother would still have to pay her because maintenance isn't about what the RP "could do with" it's about both parents taking responsibility

Would he? What about all the “equality of lifestyle” posts on here where the much richer parent is supposed to compensate the lower earning so the children have similar lifestyles in both homes?

If it were him that won the lottery, you’d expect him to give her a big chunk, no? For the kids? Would you expect her to keep on living in her 3 bed terrace while he lived with his millions in a mansion?

Saw a post on here the other day where a very high earning bloke had a court order to pay his ex so she could provide a similar lifestyle to him. Why no vice versa?

LadyGAgain Sat 23-Feb-19 08:24:17

If she supported him then he might be entitled to some support however this will be off set against maintenance. His children deserve a home and roof over their heads.
He is a shit for cheating but the courts don't apportion blame do not relevant when it comes to finances.

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