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MIL - ladies first rule...

(198 Posts)
Summertimeandlivingiseasy Tue 19-Feb-19 06:01:22

AIBU to feel that is not necessary lesson for a 6 year old. Staying at MIL for 2 week holiday. She encourages kids to eat healthily and behave on promise of a sweet treat. (Which I don't mind) my 6 year old gets all excited when she gets the sweet box out but then MIL insists his 8 year old sister can choose first as it's polite to let 'ladies to go first'. He then gets upset as his big sister always gets things before him. We've always taught them guests first and have occassionaly mentioned ladies first. Is it something everyone teaches their sons from a young age? Is it fair with siblings?

Northernparent68 Tue 19-Feb-19 06:03:51

It’s a bit dated, can you suggest they take it in turns to go first, and I’m not sure bribery with sweets is a good idea.

Myfoolishboatisleaning Tue 19-Feb-19 06:06:57

Guests first is ok, but surely turn taking is more important.

PinkSmitterton Tue 19-Feb-19 06:27:41

I hate "ladies first" it's outdated sexist crap.

Easy for me to say I know, but I feel strongly enough about it that tell MiL not to say it and have an argument about if necessary!

What's the benefit of letting his sister go first? It's upsetting him unecessarily

Hunter037 Tue 19-Feb-19 06:35:16

I don't see the reason for "ladies first". Why should girls (your DD isn't even a lady) go first? Ask you MIL to take it in turns or just offer them the box together.

The only time I've ever heard anyone use the expression is if an older man holds the door or lets you go in front in a wueue o rsomething

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 06:36:23

It would be ladies or youngest first for me. A bit like the Titanic. Women and Children only. Except a few men jumped in too. Nothing wrong with not jumping in because you're bigger and stronger.

ShaftOfWit Tue 19-Feb-19 06:37:47

I hate "ladies first" it's outdated sexist crap
This. I'd take a very dim view if anyone tried spouting this nonsense to my child. And I find it patronising and offensive if anyone suggests that I should go first because I'm a 'lady' (even the word makes me cringe).

EdWinchester Tue 19-Feb-19 06:38:27

Sexist, patronising crap. Nip it in the bud immediately.

Politeness and courtesy is what matters - to everyone.

(The sweet reward thing would annoy me too).

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 06:40:40

I wonder what sort of sons the next generation will be. From the parenting here, it doesn't bode well.

barryfromclareisfit Tue 19-Feb-19 06:42:51

Throwing the baby out with the bath water.

brookshelley Tue 19-Feb-19 06:43:58

So old fashioned. They are siblings of similar age, there are no "ladies" involved. As the oldest she probably has had her pick of items first as well. They should take turns or just be offered two of the same thing so the person choosing first doesn't get the better one.

I'd be bothered by bribing with sweets in general too.

brookshelley Tue 19-Feb-19 06:44:51

It would be ladies or youngest first for me. A bit like the Titanic. Women and Children only. Except a few men jumped in too. Nothing wrong with not jumping in because you're bigger and stronger.

How is this relevant to a 6 year old boy and 8 year old girl hmm

Aridane Tue 19-Feb-19 06:44:58

my 6 year old gets all excited when she gets the sweet box out but then MIL insists his 8 year old sister can choose first as it's polite to let 'ladies to go first'

Is to the case that MIL thinks the younger one is being a bit rude and pushy with indecent haste to go first and so is inviting his sibling no to go first?

ukgift2016 Tue 19-Feb-19 06:45:19

Omg who cares?? Seriously.

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 06:53:59

The 6 year old boy will grow up with manners or he won't.

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 06:56:03

The 6 year old boy will grow up with manners or he won't

If the only way you can model manners is by sexist tropes then there’s something amiss.

I do love the totally irrelevant Titanic comparison though grin

Summertimeandlivingiseasy Tue 19-Feb-19 06:59:06

Ukgift2016 I care and genuinely couldn't decide whether to say something as I didn't want to undermine MIL who I like and am staying in her home as a guest. Arcane I think you might be right I hadn't thought if that. Next time I will suggest turn taking more important as 8 year old isn't a lady yet. Thanks folk!

MerdedeBrexit Tue 19-Feb-19 07:24:29

It's generational, clearly. Things have changed a great deal since WWII. My mother brought me up on "Ladies first" and a load of other sexist rubbish. She would be in her nineties if she were still alive, though, and she had realised by the time she was retired that the world was very different from when she was a girl (lady wink). My own daughter has been taught to be polite and to respect other people, first and foremost.

easyandy101 Tue 19-Feb-19 07:49:07

Funny how many people seem opposed to it but never in my life has anyone ever turned down a seat I've offered, or insisted that I do indeed go first if I wave someone ahead.

I know this isn't a great example, this is sweets, there's no real negative implication to going last in a sweet selection but it's a "lesson" that MIL assumes ds is capable of extrapolating to other circumstances, although if adults can't understand it as a concept (wtf there's no lady therehmm ) maybe she's asking quite alot.

We read frequently about the real physical differences between men and women, about how we're built differently, our superior strength and fitness and the general physical inability of women in comparison to men so it's interesting that on a flip side we shouldn't try and accommodate those central facts in any way.

My priorities wrt who I allow ahead:

The elderly and infirm woman
The elderly and infirm man
The Pregnant
The Small children
The Women
The Anyone else

I never take a seat in case anyone else wants it generally, man or woman, but until someone tells me otherwise IRL then I'll stick to my outdated ways, people with manners, even some outdated ones, have been making my world a nicer place to live since forever

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 07:51:05

We read frequently about the real physical differences between men and women, about how we're built differently, our superior strength and fitness and the general physical inability of women in comparison to men so it's interesting that on a flip side we shouldn't try and accommodate those central facts in any way

That’s ok. I might be a weak and feeble woman but I can cope with opening a door or standing on public transport.

My rough guide to being a decent person is “give those a seat/help those who need it”.

easyandy101 Tue 19-Feb-19 07:52:13

I've never said ladies first though

Noticed in the restaurant last night actually that they did a genuine (and proper imo) serving the women first, pouring their drinks first etc even though the table layout made it harder. Was happy as I've noticed it's missing from some places now

2rachtin Tue 19-Feb-19 07:54:52

I'd say something if it's every time as being fair as far as possible is important to me. My MIL thinks men should sit at the head of the table which I pulled her up on (gently) when she said that to my children.

easyandy101 Tue 19-Feb-19 08:09:44

My rough guide to being a decent person is “give those a seat/help those who need it”.

Need is a relative concept and as previously inferred regardless of your strength and fitness, weakness or feebleness I always, as a (semi pro athlete) man, am stronger, am fitter, am categorically less in need

I'm not gonna stop doin it grin

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 08:12:11

I always, as a (semi pro athlete) man, am stronger, am fitter, am categorically less in need

Ah the arrogance of male

Skittlesandbeer Tue 19-Feb-19 08:14:15

I have a friend (late 30’s) who is determined to instil ‘gentlemanly’ values in her son (8yo). She makes him walk back through doorways if he’s pushed ahead of ‘ladies’, including his 10yo Dsis.

At the table, he takes his empty plate, my dd’s and his dsis’s into the kitchen. He is asked to pour drinks for the girls, etc.

It seems very old-fashioned when you see it in action. But my friend is sure it will serve him well in life. At the moment all I can see it doing is making him hate girls...!

easyandy101 Tue 19-Feb-19 08:21:29

Ah the arrogance of male

tbf I let anyone sit down before me for the above reason, man woman or child. If a train or tube fills up I'm either already standing or I'll stand up cos I know o don't need to sit and someone else may prefer to or need to

Queenofthestress Tue 19-Feb-19 08:22:36

@easyandy101 tell men being stronger to my dp who will gladly admit that if I decked him one I'd probably break something (as a joke for all those that'd get their panties in a twist) grin

EvaHarknessRose Tue 19-Feb-19 08:23:55

It’s her preference? In her house. It is your place to teach him different if you wish, or model a different attitude, but surely not to dictate how she serves her grandchildren while hosting them.

easyandy101 Tue 19-Feb-19 08:28:18

@easyandy101 tell men being stronger to my dp who will gladly admit that if I decked him one I'd probably break something (as a joke for all those that'd get their panties in a twist)

Same with my partner, have actually been in a ring with her and had my arse handed to me grin

OftenHangry Tue 19-Feb-19 08:31:01

Re the "ladies first in a door". It's supposed to be only to familiar settings. If it's unknown place, the gent used to go first in case there was a threat/bar fight etc.

StillCoughingandLaughing Tue 19-Feb-19 08:35:14

Isn’t it a bit hypocritical to get annoyed with your mother-in-law for doing this when you admit you’ve ‘occasionally mentioned’ the concept of ladies first yourself? Is it the concept that annoys you, or the fact that it’s her pushing it?

blackteasplease Tue 19-Feb-19 08:36:18

This never applied to childten in the first place I don't imagine! Taking turns I is a better rule for kids.

easyandy sounds like you are pretty fair minded to me. I think it's good to have in mind that men are usually physically stronger etc. We don't want the fit and able bodied males pushing old grannies out of the way to get to train seats, as seems to happen where I live!

MumW Tue 19-Feb-19 08:36:24

I think at 6 he's old enough to understand that Granny has outdated ideas and rules that we sometimes don't entirely agree with. Talk to them both about manners, sharing, being polite, etc
If his older sister always takes the last/only favourite sweet then you need to talk to her about being selfish and sometimes asking her younger brother if he'd like it this time.

I don't think you are going to change Granny's behaviour as this is what she was taught is the correct etiquette. Maybe mention in a jovial manner that with the progress in equality, her views are a little out of date.

Cranky17 Tue 19-Feb-19 08:39:16

It’s her preference? In her house. It is your place to teach him different if you wish, or model a different attitude, but surely not to dictate how she serves her grandchildren while hosting them

Does that work though if it works out to be negative for a child though say for example the boy was offered more food because he was a boy?

Op get them to take turns

Thehop Tue 19-Feb-19 08:40:40

We take turns.

thecatsthecats Tue 19-Feb-19 08:41:42

I think that any sort of default rule for siblings is asking for trouble of some sort.

Eldest gets the biggest bedroom.
Youngest gets to pick first.
Ladies first etc.

Any one of those means one child is on a permanent back foot. Hardly a great way to organise things. Either make decisions based upon their practical sense, give equally, or reward for specific things, e.g., "You can go first because you were so polite to the lady in the shop."

Questionsmorequestions Tue 19-Feb-19 08:45:08

It’s an opportunity to discuss the ‘ladies first’ tradition with your daughter and perhaps suggest in the interest of fairness and equality that she declines next time and lets her sibling go first.

Fishwifecalling Tue 19-Feb-19 08:47:33

Nope. Equality in this house.

AlaskanOilBaron Tue 19-Feb-19 08:52:05

Why don't you just let her have this?

We've raised our boys to be gallant where women are concerned and I hardly care if this makes me sexist.

AveAtqueVale Tue 19-Feb-19 08:54:57

I generally drum into my DS1 (4, DS2 is still a bit little at only 18 months) that he should always offer anything (sweets, biscuits etc) to anybody else around first. And that pushing in to get through a doorway or grab the best toy first is a quick way to get sent back to do it again. And that he should offer to help carry things when possible, hold doors for anyone coming behind him, and, providing he’s capable of standing, he should offer his seat to anyone who hasn’t got one, as generally people will only say yes if they need it more than he does. I put all this under the heading of ‘being nice’ and am unsure why I should be trying to teach him to be nicer to girls than to other boys.

Mummyoflittledragon Tue 19-Feb-19 09:01:49

All this is doing is instilling a false sense of superiority in your dd and to learn her place as a China doll. As for your ds, yes to creating grudges. I think Question has it. Your dd is old enough to tell grandma in your family you take turns with you backing her up.

diddl Tue 19-Feb-19 09:04:23

"I think at 6 he's old enough to understand that Granny has outdated ideas and rules that we sometimes don't entirely agree with. "

I agree with that.

I mean does it really matter who gets to choose their sweet first?

Or does your daughter always take what he would like?

F1amingo Tue 19-Feb-19 09:08:24

Some people on MN will literally make an argument out of thin air. Yes, of course, you teach your DS’ to offer their seat for women, let them go first, etc etc. What is the alternative fgs? It doesn’t need a big song and dance made about it, but I can’t fathom why some women can’t differentiate between basic chivalry / good manners and misogyny. The two are not the same at all. Only on MN do people get worked up about this kind of thing. Why?

AmIRightOrAMeringue Tue 19-Feb-19 09:09:13

I think fairness and politeness are important. To me that means turn taking and then when they're older, giving guests / friends the opportunity to choose first when offering things around. I don't think teaching children to treat other children differently dependent on their sex is a great idea. Why should they be more polite to girls? They should be polite to everyone! I don't like doing anything to reinforce that girls are 'different' or we need to be more gentle with them. I have two girls and already the eldest tries to take turns first as she's the eldest and I try and explain it's fairer for everyone to take turns having a first go

Wheresthebeach Tue 19-Feb-19 09:09:43

Its irritating but your DS is waiting, what, 2 seconds before choosing a sweet? Unless your DD is taunting him over it then he really should be able to cope.

In the grand scheme of things, I'd just explain to DS and DD that MIL is a bit old fashioned. Frankly I'd encourage DD to let DS go first next time - or ask him which one he'd like and hand it over to him.

Give them the context, and relax about it. Frankly I'd be more pissed about sweets as rewards for behaviour. If one doesn't behave properly will she refuse them the treat? Food as a method to control behaviour makes my blood boil - old lady being, well, a creature of her time - not so much.

BrizzleMint Tue 19-Feb-19 09:10:48

We don't do it but if I'm on a sinking ship I'll happily go with women first - after my children. Anybody else can fuck right off, those lifeboat spaces are ours come hell or high water.

Sharing chocolates here is a free for all - you randomly get the box to choose if you win the scrum

PBo83 Tue 19-Feb-19 09:17:18

I think in this example that taking turns would be better but I'm not sure it's worth getting into a row with your mother-in-law about.

I was bought up on 'ladies first' and, whilst I don't use the expression, I still follow what others would call 'old fashioned'. I will, for example, open a door, give up a seat, pull out a chair etc. I am fully aware that women are just as capable of opening doors, standing up and moving chairs as men but I believe there is still room for 'gentlemanly' behaviour in the 21st century.

1stTimeMama Tue 19-Feb-19 09:19:31

@easyandy101 I think you've got it right, and the idea that men like you are being battled in to near extinction, is quite sad.

Keep holding those doors open!

FlagranceDirect Tue 19-Feb-19 09:20:44

Perhaps the lesson is not so much about 'ladies first', but about learning to have some patience.

MereDintofPandiculation Tue 19-Feb-19 09:20:48

Funny how many people seem opposed to it but never in my life has anyone ever turned down a seat I've offered, or insisted that I do indeed go first if I wave someone ahead. Because it's much easier all round to accept graciously that to stop and argue with you about it.

Where fo the non-elderly visibly disabled fit into to your hierarchy of people you give way to?

Huntawaymama Tue 19-Feb-19 09:28:25

I was the eldest of three, two younger brothers and we had the opposite, I always had to wait until last so my littlest brother didn't kick off. I was very resentful about it growing up, although somehow now my brothers are "proper" gents and behave very respectfully towards me

GreenTulips Tue 19-Feb-19 09:35:45

would be ladies or youngest first for me

Why does being the youngest get additional Benidorm? Same for eldest first

Some people will never be the younger or elder sibling

Makes no sense to continually put one child second

Jinglesplodge Tue 19-Feb-19 09:40:32

This thread makes unnerving reading to me: I can't understand why it's considered a good thing to be teaching boys to be "chivalrous" or "gentlemanly" any more than we ought to teach girls to be "ladylike".

Why can't we teach boys and girls equally to respect one another and take turns? Why is it good for a restaurant to serve ladies first? Outside of genuine physical need, like a pregnant lady needing to sit, I don't think there's any room in modern parenting for teaching children that there's a difference between boys and girls.

BrizzleMint Tue 19-Feb-19 09:45:52

When we go out for a meal DS is always asked last what he would like, sometimes I will go with it and other times DD or I will ask him what he would like and he chooses before one of us. We haven't ever discussed it, it's just something that we sometimes do organically.
DS has been told he is the man of the house now, that pisses me off.

easyandy101 Tue 19-Feb-19 09:46:00

Where fo the non-elderly visibly disabled fit into to your hierarchy of people you give way to?

Infirm. But the way I wrote it wasn't clear

MereDintofPandiculation Tue 19-Feb-19 09:55:06

easyandy101 Ah, you meant, eg, elderly woman/infirm woman, rather than a woman who was both elderly and infirm. I understand now.

zzzzz Tue 19-Feb-19 10:00:38

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maelstrop Tue 19-Feb-19 10:04:25

Sex st shite and offering sweets as a reward is not ideal, Imo. I know others will disagree and think bribes are fine.

Cranky17 Tue 19-Feb-19 10:05:41

Why can't we teach boys and girls equally to respect one another and take turns?

This in bucket loads ✊

EstrellaDamn Tue 19-Feb-19 10:08:48

I'd just laugh it off in private with the kids and says 'sometimes granny is a bit old fashioned isn't she?'

It really isn't a big deal though. I wouldn't pull her up on it and make her feel awkward; it's her home after all.

FlagranceDirect Tue 19-Feb-19 10:09:29

I thought the idea of 'women and children first' in a disaster situation was to ensure continuing procreation. The more women and children who survive, there's more likelihood of survival of a race or species.

Obviously this is specific to a disaster situation. Maybe it's just trickled down the centuries.

mummmy2017 Tue 19-Feb-19 10:18:14

I think you need to let you MIL be..
I bet if you really look, you will find times your son is always compensated by her, but have not realised as your a but hooked up by the sweet thing.
Remind him that he does get a sweet, that at home this does not happen and that in the world there will always be inequality, and that learning to lose and just enjoying getting something without having to be first makes him the better person.

lyralalala Tue 19-Feb-19 10:25:15

That would annoy me. Learning to take turns is important.

No child should get to go first all the time at any activity just because they are male/female/youngest/oldest. The only time a child should get first pick of the sweets every single time is if they are an only child.

Jux Tue 19-Feb-19 10:33:42

Turn-taking is by far the most sensible way to go. For instance, a sister in between two brothers constantly loses out if eldest or youngest first is the rule. The boys always lose out if the rule is ladies first. Etc. Far better to have turn-taking and some means of indicating where you are in the turns for things which are longer between them (visits to granny once a month or less).

Eliza9917 Tue 19-Feb-19 10:52:00

He then gets upset as his big sister always gets things before him

Stop giving her things before him then.

diddl Tue 19-Feb-19 11:03:58

"He then gets upset as his big sister always gets things before him"

But we are just talking about 2wks at MIL-with you there?

DontCallMeCharlotte Tue 19-Feb-19 11:08:43

It may not be correct these days although I personally think it is but it is correct for your MIL's generation (how old is she?).

I think pick your battles and this shouldn't be one. Also, how would you counter it anyway? "No, DS, it's absolutely NOT ladies first, it's er...."

EstrellaDamn Tue 19-Feb-19 11:08:54

I'm so not getting the angst. Surely just say that different people do things differently, and at granny's it's ladies first, although we all know that at home that's not how we'd do things.

F1amingo Tue 19-Feb-19 11:24:21

My DH has always brought our boys up to let ladies go first etc and they have hardly been traumatised by it fgs!

This reminds me of when I was helping out at DDs prep school Xmas party. There was some kind of lucky dip for prizes and rather than all rushing and grabbing at the box, two boys automatically said, “ladies first” and then all the boys hung back in the queue. It’s reassuring to think we’re still bringing DC up to have some self-respect in society today, as there are so many clueless people about unfortunately.

Jinglesplodge Tue 19-Feb-19 11:29:03

Why is arbitrarily letting girls go first teaching kids self respect? That's teaching them one group has priority over the others. We wouldn't say "white children first". Why girls?

F1amingo Tue 19-Feb-19 11:36:51

Jingle - having such manners and codes of behaviour is what differentiates is from animals. Imagine a society where there was no concept of letting women go first or no concept of “difference.” They’d be pushed sideways trying to get into a bus or tube in rush hour, never get a seat because men would just push them aside. And so on.,.

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 11:40:02

magine a society where there was no concept of letting women go first or no concept of “difference.” They’d be pushed sideways trying to get into a bus or tube in rush hour, never get a seat because men would just push them aside. And so on

Wouldn't we be better served teaching a concept of "waiting your turn" to EVERYONE rather than use an outdated concept? I wouldn't expect a man who was in front of me to allow me to go first just because I have a vagina. There's absolutely no need.

Jinglesplodge Tue 19-Feb-19 11:41:47

YES, Jacques.

We totally need a code of conduct. But it's "don't be a dick", "let others go first", not giving priority to people who may or may not need it and reinforcing the idea that girls and women are weak and need to be patronised by boys and men.

AryaStarkWolf Tue 19-Feb-19 11:41:50

Oh no I have one of each and I would give them turns of being first, ladies first is so unfair

Mushroomsarehorrible Tue 19-Feb-19 11:54:37

F1amingo
Some people on MN will literally make an argument out of thin air. Yes, of course, you teach your DS’ to offer their seat for women, let them go first, etc etc. What is the alternative fgs? It doesn’t need a big song and dance made about it, but I can’t fathom why some women can’t differentiate between basic chivalry / good manners and misogyny. The two are not the same at all. Only on MN do people get worked up about this kind of thing. Why?

^ THIS x 1000000

PBo83 Tue 19-Feb-19 12:12:02

^ THIS and add a few dozen zeros

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 12:21:29

What is the alternative fgs?

That you teach your son to be a decent person to everyone, rather than genitalia being a deciding factor on manners.

lyralalala Tue 19-Feb-19 12:27:57

It’s reassuring to think we’re still bringing DC up to have some self-respect in society today, as there are so many clueless people about unfortunately.

That would be equally case if we were bringing those boys up to say “one at a time”.

Teaching girls first or boys first goes entirely against teaching that good manners should be in place all the time and that boys and girls are equal.

Minxmumma Tue 19-Feb-19 12:29:30

While teaching manners and etiquette are important we used to swap between ladies first and youngest first as I have boy/girl twins and he would never had gone first for anything. That way they both learnt to take turns and put others first. They are 16 now, polite, considerate teens.

PBo83 Tue 19-Feb-19 12:39:22

@Minxmumma

I agree, taking turns between siblings is always going to be the fairest way (particularly when, like you say, one will always be youngest/oldest etc.)

I think 'ladies first' is a fairly old-fashioned expression but, as it's only at the mother-in-law's house, it's not like the son will miss out all that much and not really worth causing an issue over.

That you teach your son to be a decent person to everyone, rather than genitalia being a deciding factor on manners.

Agreed, I don't go slamming doors in men's faces but I don't think that giving up your seat, pulling a chair out etc. for a woman is a bad thing. I'm very aware that women are perfectly capable of opening doors/standing on buses/pulling out their own chair but it's just a nice thing to do.

Do you suggest that we drop all 'traditional' gentlemanly behaviours? (This is a genuine question, not a loaded one) as I think that would be a shame.

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 12:50:07

Do you suggest that we drop all 'traditional' gentlemanly behaviours?

I think we stop peddling they’re the desired state.

Just be a decent person full stop. I don’t respect you anymore if you offer me a seat I don’t need or pull out my chair.

I’m telling my DD “treat others as you want to be treated”. She doesn’t need special treatment because she’s a girl.

PBo83 Tue 19-Feb-19 14:39:24

@JacquesHammer

That's fair enough.

Obviously priority has to be respect and kindness to everyone and I don't think anyone will argue with that.

As I said in my post, I never doubt that a woman is perfectly capable of standing/pulling out her own chair, it was just something I have always considered 'gentlemanly'.

I appreciate your daughter doesn't need special treatment and teaching independence (or boys and girls) is, I believe, an important part of parenting. I just don't think that this has to be an either/or situation. By all means teach independence but that doesn't, in my view at least, remove all value from chivalry.

PBo83 Tue 19-Feb-19 14:39:49

*for, not or

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 17:53:03

Well I see the ones who were reared to be 'equal' and the ones who were reared to be gentlemanly while trying to get on a packed tube for e.g. You've got the BIG MAN bashing through everyone to get on and on a rare occasion, you'll have a gentlemanly lad who will say 'after you' or something. It's an ugly trait in men to see them stand their ground as 'equal'. And it's a lovely trait in men to see them respecting women.

Such silliness.

Rear your sons to be gentlemen. Not 'equal' thugs.

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 17:58:19

Rear your sons to be gentlemen

No. Rear your sons to be decent people.

Don’t ascribe the qualities you’re looking for to being a “gentleman”. They’re qualities ALL people should display regardless of sex.

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:17:09

Christ, so I can't even mention the word gentleman now Jacques?

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 18:18:39

Christ, so I can't even mention the word gentleman now Jacques?

Why would you when it’s not necessary.

F1amingo Tue 19-Feb-19 18:38:28

Jacques - if vourse you should raise everyone to be kind and considerate. That goes without saying. But there is a different dynamic between men and women, as a general rule, and there’s no point pretending otherwise. Why does this aggravate you?

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 18:40:43

But there is a different dynamic between men and women, as a general rule, and there’s no point pretending otherwise. Why does this aggravate you?

Why does perpetuating gender stereotypes aggravate me....? Have a think.

F1amingo Tue 19-Feb-19 18:47:23

But what can’t just dictate that men and women should be gender neutral because that’s not realistic. It never has been and never will be really.

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:49:08

It's not a gender stereotype. Women are physically weaker than men. So a bit of manners and chivalry wouldn't go astray.

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:52:40

And I've seen boys, very young boys, young male adults and fully grown men bullying their way to the front literally and metaphorically. So it's perfectly good manners to teach them to hang back.
You don't like it when transgender females compete against females right?
But you think it's going to be a fair race if it's a free for all for the sweets?
The fact that the DGM had to tell him 'Eh no, ladies first,' means that the DS was of course rushing in first. As the male of the species is prone to do.

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 18:52:56

Women are physically weaker than men. So a bit of manners and chivalry wouldn't go astray

So we only show manners to people weaker than ourselves?

Rather than, you know, teaching everyone to be courteous and mindful of those around them?

Us poor weak women, how do we cope grin

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 18:54:36

You don't like it when transgender females compete against females right?

Yes because that's the same.

But you think it's going to be a fair race if it's a free for all for the sweets?

There are countless ways you can get kids to be fair around turn taking. If the only one you can think of is "ladies first" it doesn't show much imagination.

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:55:20

We cope by surrounding ourselves by men who are gentlemen, not thugs.

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:56:15

Let me guess Jacques. You only have sons?

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:57:17

So you acknowledge that transgender females have an unfair advantage? Why? Because they're male!

JacquesHammer Tue 19-Feb-19 18:57:50

We cope by surrounding ourselves by men who are gentlemen, not thugs

We cope by teaching children to be decent.

Let me guess Jacques. You only have sons?

Absolutely incorrect grin

Saylav Tue 19-Feb-19 18:59:23

I'm willing to wager that you're lying honey. That, or you've a gender neutral girl thrown into the mix there somewhere. And you'll be complaining when she grows up and decides she actually feels like a boy grin

Wearywithteens Tue 19-Feb-19 19:00:58

The fact that the DGM had to tell him 'Eh no, ladies first,' means that the DS was of course rushing in first. As the male of the species is prone to do.

^This is what I instinctively thought too.

And if the this is the only thing you have to worry about when your children are being ably looked after by a very nice sounding MIL I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Kids know that grannies and granddads say old fashioned, un-pc stuff - it’s a major acceptance in youth culture so just let it go.

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