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To think you can't be a "nice guy" if you use prostitutes for sex?

(448 Posts)
NotMyOriginalName1 Thu 06-Dec-18 14:22:33

Or can you?

In short, somebody I've known for a number of years openly admits to visiting sex workers and has deluded himself into believing he's one of the good guys and isn't exploitative. He spouts bullshit about having respect for the women he sees and thinks they adore his charming company.

I've lost what respect I have for him.

Unbeknownst to him I have personal experience of these situations, I was a sex worker in my late teens and what lead me there was an abusive relationship. I never felt respected by one single 'customer' in fact it was the 'good guys' who made my skin crawl the most.

Aibu to say he's an exploitative c-u-next-tuesday or am I jaded as a result my own trauma?

1ndig0 Mon 10-Dec-18 12:14:21

No Jaques, I’m talking about women themselves taking responsibility for the plight of other women. Where prostitution is genuinely a “choice” then I would argue a woman should make another choice, yes.

Personally I would not be a porn actress either if it involves enacting abusive sex scenes (which most of it does) because it would feel disingenuous to make “entertainment” out if such practices and like a slap in the face to all the women who suffer coerced or unpleasant sex at the hands of partners in real life every day. As I say, if you can make a different choice, then make it. And no I would not want to work in the tobacco industry as a non- smoker - why would I make that choice when I can work anywhere else? If I was forced to work there through circumstances, then I would have to, but Im not.

JacquesHammer Mon 10-Dec-18 12:01:52

* You are enabling this mindset in men*

It doesn’t matter how men behave, there is always someone to lay the blame at the door of women.

busybarbara Mon 10-Dec-18 11:32:20

Do these women not see that their “choice” is perpetrating the acceptable face of a wider industry that exploits and enslaves?

I'm guessing you'd also look down your nose at women who willingly work in the gambling, tobacco or alcohol industries.

1ndig0 Mon 10-Dec-18 10:39:33

I’m late to this thread, however, I have to say I have no truck whatsoever with any woman who attempts to justify prostitution as a career of “choice.” This is monumentally disingenuous imo. Do these women not see that their “choice” is perpetrating the acceptable face of a wider industry that exploits and enslaves? Do they have the basic integrity to just stop and think for one minute. If it really is a “choice” to be a prostitute -then make another bloody choice that doesn’t entrench this notion that its ok to buy women’s bodies because it’s “legal”, “good money for the prostitute”, “they’re not like all the others,” “they must have chosen to do it / enjoy sex”, and the other pathetic crap. You are enabling this mindset in men. How could a man possibly know the full background of any woman he buys sex from - does he conduct a quick questionnaire? Bollocks.

The fact is it takes a basic lack of integrity to choose to facilitate these men - and here I am obviously making a massive distinction between women who claim to sellsec out of choice and the millions of women, now and historically, who have had no choice - and a basic lack of integrity and self- respect to buy consent. So no, OP, he is not a decent man and there is a very good reason why most women do not actively choose or promote the idea of being a prostitute and most men do not feel the need to pay for women.

ErrolTheDragon Mon 10-Dec-18 10:14:11

* I was arguing against the previous poster in a slightly unintelligent way.*

Slightly? hmmExtremely sexist, tbh, and I can't see what that list has to do with 'consent'.

EarlyModernParent Mon 10-Dec-18 09:27:22

Lots of posters talk about ‘legalising’ prostitution. It is legal. Selling access to your body is not a crime. Associated activities, like kerb crawling, soliciting, running a disorderly house, pimping etc. Are crimes.

53rdWay Mon 10-Dec-18 09:07:59

But I am fascinated by this insistence that we are obliged to see at least some men who buy prostitues as ‘nice guys”. Not just “you must allow them to do this” but also “you must see them as nice, it is mean/irrational/judgy/prudish to not see them as nice.”

Why is this? Why is it so important? Surely these men do not care what I think of them. How does it harm them to know that some woman somewhere doesn’t think they’re “nice”?

busybarbara Mon 10-Dec-18 09:07:45

The whole world of work is about buying consent. No one really wants to be packing shelves or be told what to do for eight hours a day. You basically get paid to not complain about being enslaved.

On a slightly different tack, can someone be a "nice" person and wear cheap clothing that's made by people paid peanuts in Asia? Most of us do it and know how badly they're treated..

MollySoward Mon 10-Dec-18 09:02:55

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

53rdWay Mon 10-Dec-18 09:01:29

You feel that Ryan Gosling and Ashton Kutcher are being exploited?

sacreJaune Mon 10-Dec-18 08:54:46

"Do you honestly think that because those women are older than those men, it must necessarily be a coercive relationship?"

Coercive? I'm not sure. I was arguing against the previous poster in a slightly unintelligent way. I do feel my skin crawl when I see rich old men with beautiful young women and it makes me question my views on sexism. Cher, being an example, has attracted younger and younger men as she got more and more powerful.

"If you need the money to pay the heating bill/buy food for your kids/pay off debts, you're not having sex because you truly want to, you're having sex because you have to. "

So you think it's from when money changes from being a necessity to a luxury, it stops being rape (for that's what sex without consent is).

I doubt that these men thought that they'd be with a woman so many decades older than they are and I doubt they would be if the women weren't right and famous. By your standards, it's coercive which, in UK law, is unequivocally rape.

From the standpoint of "feminism", it's fine of course. Reparations?

Hisaishi Mon 10-Dec-18 08:29:08

"Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore
Cheryl and Liam Payne
Madonna and Timor Steffens
Sandra Bullock and Ryan Gosling
Kris Jenner and Corey Gamble"

I'm sorry, I really don't get this. Do you honestly think that because those women are older than those men, it must necessarily be a coercive relationship?

Of course payment invalidates consent. The law is not some kind of definition of this: laws can be wrong, as we can see through the history of slavery, gay sex being outlawed etc.

If you need the money to pay the heating bill/buy food for your kids/pay off debts, you're not having sex because you truly want to, you're having sex because you have to. That is not consent.

sacreJaune Mon 10-Dec-18 08:08:42

Remember:

Lack of consent is:

The complainant's assertion of force or threats;

Evidence that by reason of drink, drugs, sleep, age or mental disability the complainant was unaware of what was occurring and/ or incapable of giving valid consent; or

Evidence that the complainant was deceived as to the identity of the person with whom (s)he had intercourse.

Are you arguing with the law or saying your version of morality is more important than others'?

sacreJaune Mon 10-Dec-18 08:06:14

"You can't buy consent."

Yes you can.

Ashton Kutcher and Demi Moore
Cheryl and Liam Payne
Madonna and Timor Steffens
Sandra Bullock and Ryan Gosling
Kris Jenner and Corey Gamble

BertrandRussell Mon 10-Dec-18 07:43:58

You can't buy consent.

sacreJaune Mon 10-Dec-18 07:35:17

I don't judge anyone for what goes on in consensual sex.

I think he can be nice and have sex with prostitutes.

BeachtheButler Mon 10-Dec-18 02:06:45

Hestai I can confirm that buying porn back in the day was also something you'd keep quiet about. Not as bad as paying for sex, but not something you'd shout about. "Incels" I have heard of. They are definitely a 21st century phenomenon.

Warpdrive Sun 09-Dec-18 08:20:33

I know a man who regularly goes to Thailand to see his girlfriend who lives there. She is a prostitute, and that’s how they met. Because he gave her herpes, he feels guilty that she can’t work any more (she may have given him the herpes in reality but he believes he gave to her) so when he’s back in the uk he sends her hundreds of pounds a month to support her. Every other year he pays for her to come here for a few months and supports her while she’s here. Every so often she’ll request a lump sum, say £300, and he sends it. He lives in the UK in the smallest house, in the roughest street, works a manual job and has arthritis so his working days are numbered, and often complains that he has no money.

He believes she is his girlfriend.

I’m not sure which one is being exploited more. He just doesn’t want to hear the truth, his delusion makes him happy. I find it extraordinary as he is a very handsome and intelligent man, so kind in so many ways. But so blind to the truth that he is a total user and she doesnt want him but his money.

BertrandRussell Sun 09-Dec-18 07:13:53

Men have been telling women that men need sex since time immemorial.

Psychonaut Sun 09-Dec-18 02:22:07

@InkyGrail what utter BS you are spouting...

LassWiADelicateAir Sun 09-Dec-18 02:07:40

Saying it's a need implies to me that someone can't live or function without it

If that were true then all the more reason to spend the money on therapy or counselling to address what is not a normal state and/or resolve the personality problems preventing such a person forming a relationship with someone who is willing to have sex without having to be paid.

BollockingBaubles Sun 09-Dec-18 01:59:59

For me sex is a need and a want. An integral and essential part of my life and being. To assume it isn't is to desexual and densenusalise those who feel it is

If you feel it's a need then would you buy sexual consent yourself if you didn't/couldn't obtain it freely from a long term partner or for one night stand.

If you would, what steps would you take to be certain the person you're buying sex from isn't there because they are not desperate for the money and don't actually want to be having sex with strangers for money.

Saying it's a need implies to me that someone can't live or function without it,

LassWiADelicateAir Sun 09-Dec-18 00:23:19

Recreational sex is fun, it is not a need. I don't care how many punters say it is or how loudly or how often they say it.

Meaningful connections with other people are necessary for the vast majority of people's mental health. Those connections can be all or any of friends, family, partners, neighbours, colleagues, lovers, even the person you copped off with on a Saturday night.

If you are unable to make these connections except by paying someone to connect with you, you might be better spending the money on a therapist or counsellor than a prostitute.

HestiaParthenos Sun 09-Dec-18 00:02:52

I understand prostitution when it's men/women who are severely disfigured or handicapped, so obviously it can be difficult for them to find love but still have needs.

As others pointed out, it is a want, not a need.

Either you aren't disfigured so badly and can still find someone. If you have a great personality, there's the internet so you don't have to show people your face right at the beginning.

Or you are so disfigured that absolutely everyone who sees you runs away screaming.
If I looked like that (though I am not sure that's even possible, people can get used to a lot), paying someone so he lets me use his body for sex while silent tears stream down his face and he shakes in terror ... wouldn't really seem appealing to me.

ErrolTheDragon Sat 08-Dec-18 23:53:57

I reckon the want/need thing is analogous to alcohol... if you want it, fine but if you need it you may have a problem.

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