My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

AIBU?

To be so lost after PSHE comment on consent/alcohol and now situation with DD. *trigger warning, mentions rape*

188 replies

Itssohothere · 22/05/2018 10:18

I have tried my best to word this post best as I can, but if anyone is offended then I do apologise. I did consider the feminism section but this is also about general parenting advice as well so hopefully here is okay.

DD is 16 and currently doing GCSE’s. Study leave has been removed for the whole year due to lack of said studying. The school have decided to continue with PSHE, God knows why, so DD is still attending hourly PSHE sessions once a week.

The PSHE teacher has reportedly said, “if a man and woman have sex and either is drunk, it’s rape.” Bear in mind this is my 16 year old DD’s account.

DD has come home very angry with this statement and has asked me to explain this. According to my DD, she has had sex when drunk before at a party and doesn’t consider herself to have been raped. I knew DD was sexually active but this conversation has thrown me and I don’t think I’ve done DD justice in explaining the teachers comment.

I tried to explain that a woman cannot consent if drunk, which is as far as I got really. But DD then went back to the point if she didn’t think she has been raped, surely not every woman who has drunken sex has been raped and if the man is drunk he cannot consent also. Which again, please bear in mind is my DD’s opinion, not my own. And she is 16, very strong headed and opinonated. I know many people will disagree with her here.

So AIBU on several points here:

A) to be concerned that my DD has had drunken sex at a party? I knew she had had sex with her ex boyfriend, and she was fully advised and prepared in terms of protection, but I wasn’t aware of drunken sex at parties. She shouldn’t be drinking, so I can punish her for drinking... but at the same time I feel like I’d be punishing for having sex which I don’t want too do, as obviously this wouldn’t be healthy at all. What do I do here? Let it go and accept she’s just at this stage now? We are close, she’s always told me stuff so I’m grateful that our closeness has led to conversations about protection, etc... and has allowed me to help her get herself on the pill, talk her through the confusion of when she first had sex and felt upset after, etc... and I don’t want to ruin this. I like the fact she trusts me so much and is willing to confide in me and I don’t want to lose this.

And B) she’s leaving school soon, but AIBU to be annoyed at how sloppy this PSHE lesson was? And want there to be some sort of follow up? Clearly some girls have been left confused and angsted.


And finally, what the hell do I say to my DD? A woman can’t consent if she’s drunk, but if you have sex whilst drunk and are perfectly happy with the activities, then of course you don’t have to think of yourself as raped- but have to bear in mind that a woman still cannot consent if drunk, you cannot speak for other women, therefore another woman in the same situation may very well consider themselves to have been raped and in which case this will have been rape?

But then by saying this I feel like I am telling my DD that a woman chooses if she has been raped, which of course isn’t true.

So can someone more articulate please provide me with an explanation, resource or input I can share with my daughter here? I feel like this a chance I have to make a positive impact on her development and I don’t want to eff up here but explaining something terribly.

Thank you.

OP posts:
Pengggwn · 22/05/2018 10:22

Sorry you are finding this difficult.

Clarify to your DD that the law is that you have to be able to consent, to consent. So, being drunk in and of itself when you have sex does not mean you were raped. You have to be impaired such that you can't consent.

I wouldn't waste my time complaining about a clumsy delivery of the message. People struggle to deliver this sort of content because it is both sensitive and, as it seems it was to you, confusing.

MapleSap1 · 22/05/2018 10:27

I tried to explain that a woman cannot consent if drunk

Well that's your problem. You were wrong. Of course a woman can consent to sex if she's drunk.

She will however, have been raped if she's too drunk to consent.

GalwayWayfarer · 22/05/2018 10:28

I think that it would help to really focus in on what consent actually means, rather than on being drunk specifically.

Consent means an adult with full capacity choosing freely and without coercion to do a specific thing. If any feature of that is missing, it isn't consent.

Being drunk doesn't necessarily negate consent. I am drunk after three glasses of wine but I can still make informed decisions about sex with my partner. But obviously there are times where being drunk does negate consent. The level of drunkenness is important here.

This is a difficult and nuanced conversation to have because in making the above point you don't want to give the impression that a girl who is too drunk to consent hasn't been raped if she said yes. I think it's ok to tell your DD that there is no hard rule about when consent can and can't be given due to alcohol (like you can't say before a bottle of wine is fine but after isn't). You can explain to her that this is probably why her teacher said drunk sex is rape - because the distinction is hard to identify and she was playing it safe.

Informed consent is an ongoing discussion, something that teenagers have to keep learning and understanding as they grow up.

YANBU to want to complain about a PHSE lesson which doesn't seem fit for purpose.

Pengggwn · 22/05/2018 10:33

And it is also important to explain to her that the requirement is that the person doing the penetrating reasonably believes the other person can and did consent. So, if they have no reason to think you are too drunk to consent, it isn't rape.

Tricky, but the law isn't complicated. It's the myths that arise around it that cause the issues.

x2boys · 22/05/2018 10:35

I have had sex many times when I have been drunk I haven't been raped i.have also had one night stands in my younger and single days whilst being drunk , some of them i regretted whilst sober but regrettable sex isnt rape , if someone is too drunk to consent that's a different matter.

FluffyHippo · 22/05/2018 10:38

Rather than worrying about the kind of education and guidance your daughter's school is giving her, you should've spent more time teaching her about self-control and self-respect.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 22/05/2018 10:40

I don't know if your DD watches Hollyoaks, but this documentary here might be interesting to watch with her? It links to a sexual consent storyline they did a while ago which explored the issue of drinking and consent.

FreshStartToday · 22/05/2018 10:42

Yy to everything that Galway said. However, I would take a step back and focus on the good things here

You and your daughter are close and she can talk to you about these things - fantastic
The PHSE lesson has raised a question which she had not thought about, and she has come home and talked about it with you - really important
You haven't thought through yet, how to explain this to her, but you now can, with help from MN. Again, v positive!

I don't think that you should complain about the lesson, but you might offer some feedback. I would start by thanking them for raising such an important issue but explain that you have had a number of robust discussions since about it, and that it might be helpful in future to give students chance in class to talk through this important issue - after all, not everyone can go home and discuss it with their mum.

Cath2907 · 22/05/2018 10:43

I too have had a few drunken shags in my younger days. Genuinely I regretted them in the morning but I certainly consented at the time, had a clear memory of consenting and knew that at the time I'd said yes I meant yes. That wasn't rape - just stupidity on my part!
Had I been too drunk to consent (passed out / obviously completely out of it) that would have been rape.
I was always sober enough to keep my £10 for the cab home and get the cab home (with or without my bad choice of man for the night).

Dontknowwhatimdoing · 22/05/2018 10:47

I think it is brilliant that your DD trusts you enough to be having this conversation with you. I fully agree with her that being drunk doesn't mean that she couldn't consent. It would depend how drunk a person was, and that is not always easy to judge. I'd find it quite insulting to be told I couldn't consent to something while drunk, because it suggests that I don't know my own mind, which is just not true.

I don't know if this will help, apologies if not, but here is the legal definition of rape :

A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

So in law it is not just about how "B" feels, it is also about the reasonable belief of "A" I hope that is of some help.

UpstartCrow · 22/05/2018 10:48

I'd be concerned at her angry reaction. Usually, if people feel advice doesn't apply to them, they can accept that and realise it may apply to or help other people.

I'm also not sure why you are being put on the spot and not her teacher who made the statement. If she didn't ask for more information in the lesson then he may have thought he did not need to clarify, and moved on.

cloudtree · 22/05/2018 10:52

I think you confused things along with the teacher.

It is a nonsense to say that woman can't consent to sex if she's drunk. Of course she can.

A woman who is comatose through drinking too much and doesn't know what is happening to her cannot of course consent.

The two things are very different.

RexManning · 22/05/2018 10:54

Have you and DD seen the 'cup of tea' video? It sounds reductive but it is a really good distillation of the issue. It sounds like the teacher made a clumsy attempt to discuss the capacity to consent.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 22/05/2018 10:58

This is a tough subject for adults to grasp.

I facilitate training which covers this (where I swear I'm more articulate than I am on here) and often it's easier to bring in any police officers present in the room rather than argue this on my own as a Big Bad Feminist.

I firstly disagree with what the teacher said, as reported.
It would be possible for the male in question to be so drunk he's incapable of consent to sexual activity, yes, but this would be sexual assault.
But the way it's often framed is 'they're both raping each other' or similar. Whereas I view it more as, if a man is drunk and he has sex with a woman who is also drunk, she's raped but generally he is culpable for his behaviour.
If you smash a window when you're drunk you're still committing a crime. And drunkenness is not usually taken into consideration as mitigation.

If you tend to do crimes when drunk, don't drink.

Whereas the victim of rape is a victim of someone taking advantage of her inability to consent.


Aaaaanyway.

Young women your daughter's age often have victim-blaming attitudes that are at least in part due to them not wanting to acknowledge that they themselves have been victims of rape and sexual assault.

As in the comments above, it's up to her how to view what happened.
But also, there's tipsy and there's passed out drunk.

If she's been assaulted and she was passed out drunk at the time, then yes - she should be avoiding getting that drunk if possible and yes - it's ok in my view for her to hear from you that you consider that to be a serious crime. That you would never take the decision out of her hands to report but from your perspective and a legal perspective, you want her to hear that it's not something anyone should do to her.


This 'cup of tea' video is good.

This 'I just froze' covers victim blaming
This 'so many reasons' covers why women don't report.

If she's up for watching them, and maybe discussing the content, it might be more useful than the PHSE where it sounds like the teacher might have been tying themselves up in knots not upsetting the male students.
SuperLoudPoppingAction · 22/05/2018 10:58

x-posts, rex - that took a while!

RexManning · 22/05/2018 11:00

Great minds, SuperLoud! I teach secondary and use it with Y11.

LagunaBubbles · 22/05/2018 11:03

I tried to explain that a woman cannot consent if drunk

Thats ridiculous, youre wrong. Of course a woman can consent if shes drunk. Ive had lots of drunken sex (well in my younger years!), being drunk doesnt render you completely incapable! If shes too drunk to consent then that would be rape.

upsideup · 22/05/2018 11:11

A woman can’t consent if she’s drunk

Of course she can, your dd consented and she wasnt raped, a woman (and a man) can be too drunk to give consent.
Why are you just talking about women? what power do you think men have that means they can't be taken advantage of while drunk?
If there both equally drunk do you still think the women would be the victim as she is the only one who cant consent?

LadyLance · 22/05/2018 11:12

I think part of the problem is that drunk can mean different things to different people. I also think there's a big difference between two very drunk people deciding to have sex and a sober person having sex with a very drunk person. You do also get cases of people (usually men) adding extra alcohol to a person's drinks so that their inhibitions lower and they are more likely to have sex. Alcohol is the most common "date rape" drug.

Firstly, I would say to your DD that if she doesn't feel she has been raped that is fine and the teacher was possibly/probably exaggerating for effect, or phrased things badly, or has a different meaning of "drunk" to your DD. However, I would also ask her to think about why she feels so angry about this statement. I think your point that she can't speak for other women is a very good one to make.

Secondly, I would get her on some long term contraception other than the pill. If she is sick (due to drinking or hangover) the pill can become a lot less effective. It's also very easy to forget to take the pill when hungover and maybe staying at someone else's house from the night before. Obviously, she should still use a condom BUT they are much less effective (and more likely to break/split/come off) if not put on correctly, which is more likely with two drunk teens.

I think it's really good that she can talk to you about this, and I wouldn't punish her. I would talk to her about putting herself in risky situations a bit, but I think at this age you kind of have to leave it to her judgement, at least a bit.

RexManning · 22/05/2018 11:13

I agree it isn't helpful to say that being drunk makes it impossible to consent.

I think the conversation needs to be more around the fact that alcohol removes inhibitions and that someone who has been drinking is more likely to take risks. She will know lots of people who have made poor choices after drinking and she may have done so herself. The point at which those risks become unacceptably dangerous for herself or for others is the point at which the person concerned is losing the capacity to give informed consent. I know her friends won't be driving yet but you can give the example that you wouldn't let a drunk friend drive home, and I'm sure she can think of times when she's stopped a drunk friend from calling an ex, or climbing a really high tree, or similar.

Like pp I would be a bit concerned that her angry reaction is perhaps an indication that she regrets something that she has consented to when drunk - not necessarily sex.

Meralia · 22/05/2018 11:15

I don’t think it’s your DD people will be disagreeing with here...

YearOfYouRemember · 22/05/2018 11:16

It's such a dangerous thing to get wrong, and we all know children and young adults who take more notice of authors figures than of parents, as it isn't healthy for a woman to think she's been raped and therefore a victim when she hasn't.

Frenchiemamax · 22/05/2018 11:17

Rather than worrying about the kind of education and guidance your daughter's school is giving her, you should've spent more time teaching her about self-control and self-respect.

You're a dick Fluffy

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 22/05/2018 11:18

For me, personally, about 1.5 units of alcohol would impair my decision-making ability. If I said how much I had drunk before (god forbid) being raped, I would want someone to believe that the perpetrator had clocked me as someone who had impaired judgement and ability to negotiate the boundary invasions which would probably lead up to an attack.

I pour myself a v weak G and T. The one time I let someone else make me one, I couldn't taste how much stronger it was (about that 1.5 unit mark) and I have no memory of the next couple of hours. And I was in my thirties.

I think alcohol/consent is a very hard conversation to have with young people who are experimenting with alcohol and probably also with sex. I only have one child who's in this age group so far. She's not super-sociable so she hasn't had to negotiate much of this. And now her end of year ball is coming up and i'm wondering whether to let her have an alcoholic drink at home to see if she finds it affects her a lot.

She's quietly planning to bring cans of elderflower cordial so it looks to her peers like she's drinking. Which is the kind of thing I would have done.

About 3 years ago one of her male peers just disappeared from her class. He was put into another school. Parents concerned took the view that he raped a young woman in his class at a party. But the young woman didn't share this view. This has been discussed in my daughter's year group for the past couple of years and they generally feel it's ridiculous that her view didn't count. I don't think there's any magic way of shifting that attitude towards 'yes but the next victim might not share this view' type of thing or 'well but it is illegal', even.

upside up, I addressed this above - rape is penetration with a penis that isn't consented to. This is possible while a man is drunk.

BlankTimes · 22/05/2018 11:21

Agree with posters above re definition of drunk and consent. she didn't understand the difference, hopefully she does now.

She shouldn’t be drinking, so I can punish her for drinking
I wouldn't, it's in the past. just say as a reminder you're 16, you're not supposed to be drinking alcohol and leave it at that. The more fuss you make, the more attractive the 'banned' action will be, or at least it was when I was 16.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.