Women working out of the home condem other women

[restofthetimes]

....to caring for their children. For low pay. (Albeit very expensive childcare for the end user? ie a working couple one of whose wages possibly only just covers childcare fees.... leaving them with effectively one income again)

This is the reality. The number of men caring for the children hasn’t gone up as the number of women working out of the home has.

In an ideal world, would there be an equal number of sahds to sahms? Or should we force more men into paid childcare jobs. I don’t know the statistics, but it seems men just don’t want to work in that area. So women bear the brunt again.

It all seems weird .

[Tarraleaha]

you should try to find the thread where a mother was hysterical after her kid went on a sleepover at a friends' house, and was given a lift the following morning BY THE FATHER. Cue the number of posters absolutely outraged that a MAN, the father, could do such a horrendous act and dare driving a kid back to her home.

Let's not forget the cries of horror when a nursery worker is.. MALE!

you can force as many men you want in midwifery, childcare, and so on but they might struggle to find jobs.

[NewYearNewMe18]

Or should we force more men into paid childcare jobs.

Force ??? you want to force jobs onto people. You'll be expecting the workshy to get jobs next.

[UgandanKnuckles]

Maybe when men can interact with children without being accused of being peadophiles, they may be more inclined to work with them.

[Tarraleaha]

You will never have as many SAHD as SAHM.

What happens in families with SAHD when the mother gets pregnant again, and only get statutory maternity pay? Not all companies have generous maternity leave packages, and not all companies can afford to be that generous.
Many families NEED at least a full salary to survive, it financially does not work to have 2 parents home when people want several children.

[Eliza9917]

I do wonder why so many people go to work when they have nothing or negligible amounts left over after childcare. What's the point?

[Trills]

CONDEMN is a pretty dramatic word to be using here.

People who don't sew their own clothes condemn other women, often in poor conditions, to sew clothes for them.

People who don't grow their own vegetables condemn other people (not so much women) to grow vegetables for them.

Er, no. Division of labour among different members of society is sensible and efficient and lets us all have a higher standard of living than if we tried to be self-sufficient in all ways.

[NewYearNewMe18]

I do wonder why so many people go to work when they have nothing or negligible amounts left over after childcare. What's the point?

-pension accrual
-self esteem
-independence
-retaining your sanity
-And the knowledge that in 10 years you will be able to pick up the threads of your career with out a gaping great nothingness in your CV

[Rebeccaslicker]

Eliza - if you think you only work for money, you've not been doing the right job/s.

Sure, it's an important part of it. A very important part. But it's not the only reason!

[restofthetimes]

Women take the bulk of paid caring jobs, is that really sensible and efficient division of labour among member of society?

Its a bit difficult to earn more, less or equal to your male counterparts when there are barely any male counterparts in your career.The whole gender pay gap thing is missing the point on this one.

[LifeBeginsAtGin]

In an ideal world, would there be an equal number of sahds to sahms?

Whose world is this then?

Absolutely women should be able to go to work after having children, but women have no right in saying man should stay at home - it's choice.

My DH would have gone mad staying at home with our DD's, but I would never say he had to because 'it's equal' or 'ideal'.

Has anyone asked the menz what they want?

[restofthetimes]

Exactly life begins. So if neither mum nor dad stay at home, what happens to the kids?

Mainly daycare. Mainly low paid women.

[RitaMills]

Eliza9917 because in my case it was only short term, I was left with very little when I had to put baby DS into full time nursery for 4 years. He is at school now and apart from £25 per week breakfast club I don’t need childcare anymore. I wouldn’t have been able to walk into the same job with the same pay and hours if I’d left for that 4 years I’ve also moved up the ladder slightly in my job which again would not have been possible if I’d left to be a SAHM.

[WTFIsThisVirus]

I went back to work when DS was 6 months old. I was bored at home, I missed working, and I wanted to do it for my career. I also didn't want to be entirely financially dependent on DP. We have struggled financially to pay for everything.

Fast forward a year and I've just been offered my first management position , with a massive boost in income. I will now be the main earner in our household.

I wouldn't condemn SAHM, but I do think too many women put themselves into a vulnerable position without thinking through the consequence of SAH.

As for getting more men into childcare, too long have we subconsciously divided work into "men's work" and "women's work". Until that changes, and paternity rights become more fair, I think we will continue to see more women than men take on more caring roles/ be SAHMs/ work part-time.

[Bluntness100]

Why is it always the woman's fault?

Can never get my head round this thought process.

[Darkbendis]

Eliza9917, sometimes it's because of the pension, or chances to progress in the company or keep up to date with the industry, chances to be able to move to a different job (easier to get to a better/better paid job if you are already in a job). Sometimes it's because otherwise it were too difficult for her to find something else in the area. Sometimes it's because that little bit of money left after she pays the costs of childcare is very important for the household finances, and can cover critical things like the gas and electricity bill, or the food for two weeks.... Not much money, but it would be really bad to manage without it. Or sometimes it's just because she actually enjoys her job, enjoys being out of the house and working, enjoys her profession.

Or a combination of all of these. Or probably other reasons too.

[LifeBeginsAtGin]

So if neither mum nor dad stay at home, what happens to the kids?

Parents need to plan this in advance. You can't pop out a couple of kids and then wonder who will look after them.

[RolyRocks]

-pension accrual
-self esteem
-independence
-retaining your sanity
-And the knowledge that in 10 years you will be able to pick up the threads of your career with out a gaping great nothingness in your CV

Exactly what I was going to say, NewYearNewMe18! Having no gap in my pension payments is important to me and my future (and my children hopefully won't have to worry about having to help out in my retirement.)

That, and the unpopular view that I feel that my DD is more stimulated and gets more out of being in childcare than staying at home with me glued to the TV or at the odd playgroup. I'll be doing the same with my other DD when I go back to work.

[grasspigeons]

I'm a working mum but I agree that plenty of women on mn anyway talk about returning to work to things like self esteem, pension accruel and keeping there career alive with little appreciation that the cleaners and childcare workers they rely on (as do their DH) are mainly women. The girls at my son's old nursery earned about £16k a year for an 8 til 6 day. They couldnt afford to send their own child to the nursery they work in. Not all women have careers.

[Rumpledfaceskin]

I would love to know how most people I know afford to work and pay childcare. None of them are in exceptionally well paid roles. I can’t imagine what they actually take home per month. I get the whole,keeping your career going thing but working for virtually no pay seems outrageous.

[TheDailyMailLovesTheEUReally]

So what's your solution OP? Have a little toby over to the TTC boards and tell the posters there not to have kids because by doing so they will be "condemning" other women into low paid childcare work?

[SusanBunch]

I agree but you are putting the blame on the wrong people. It's not the mothers' fault. It's the fault of society and the state for designating care as being low value women's work. If the status of care were raised and the government subsidised it so that carers were paid decent wages and parents could afford to pay for it, we would live in a happier society. We would also need to tackle the gender roles enforced on children that tell boys that being a carer is less worthy etc.

[NotReadyToMove]

Maybe the answer is to stop making those jobs around caring (for children but you could well add the elderly too tbh) just as important as other jobs and actually pay those people more??
Like they do in Scandinavian countries.

Rather than accusing women who want to work (and protect their pension and their financial indépendance in case of a divorce, somthey and their dcs will not live in poverty) to be really awful to other women (who work too btw - oh the irony....)

[MaverickSnoopy]

I wonder if in part there is such an imbalance because perhaps some women want to stay at home with their children?

I've done full time with my first and now part time with my second and I definitely prefer being at home with them over working and struggling with work life balance.

I absolutely agree with women have the choice. But part of having a choice is to be able to choose.

[LinoleumBlownapart]

Women working at home condemn other women to take care of their children? Condemn? I pay someone to take care of my children but I'm hardly condemn her, my children can be a handfull but they're not THAT bad!

I think I get the second bit though, childcare jobs have low pay and are mostly done by women. As a teacher I often find it odd that in all my classrooms withour exception and in all the three countries I've worked in the majority of the highest achieving students will be girls and yet society doesn't reflect this, the highest earners and achievers in job markets are men.

Interestingly in Brazil they changed the way police and fire chiefs were recruited by making a it entrance test/academic criteria based rather than climbing the ladder from within, now well over 50% of chiefs are women, in fact I bet it's nearer 75% or more. In the old system they were all men.

The problem is not in women having babies, the problem is much deeper than that. It's still very much an old boys network in many job markets. Men and women have an ingrained nature to trust men in work environment more and merit and achievement alone is rarely enough. Even men in childcare and education have a much better chance of climbing the ladder than any of the women. Sad and in desperate need of change.