To think that students have more rights than teachers ( and that this is not good.)(211 Posts)
If i treated my students the way they treated me id be sacked.
They swear, answer back, are extremely rude and patronising . One even tried to stroke my arm today.....ugggrrr!
You're the adult.
I sympathise, it is a hard job, but it is always the way.
Yes, yes and yes. You hear lots of loud voices about their rights but they fail to recognise that with rights come responsibility. A student tried to quote the human rights around toilet breaks to me last week. Regardless of the fact that he was in isolation all day and went to the toilet 20 minutes earlier and couldn't quite find the reference that stated he was entitled to go whenever he asked to. I hate to say it but a lot of this sort of thing depends on the school. I currently work in two schools (long fairly boring story) and the difference is huge and most if it boils down to a strong senior management. But yes, I hear you sister. The touching thing is awful, as is the swearing, I'm no prude and I'm as fond as well timed explitive as the next person but what you hear in corridors is VILE.
A student once told me he paid my wages. I pointed out that as I was at work, being paid, and he was at school, I was in fact the only tax payer in the room so I paid my own wages more than he did... he was an incredibly rude 14 year old! I can't imagine speaking to anyone like that, but he was protected by the fact he was a child and I was an adult and therefore he could get away with it!
Weren't kids in the UK voted worst behaved in Europe?
I don't have to look any further then my morning bus commute to believe it to be true. I'd rather put a campfire out with my face then try to be a teacher here.
They don’t get any better I’m afraid. I used to work in college administration and older they got, the more entitled they got, with female PhD students being particularly aggressive and awful. The Admissions Office had the highest turnover of staff as it was understaffed and by the time they got anyone trained up, the employee was already walking out the door. You couldn’t even say they gave a classier insult as they still resorted to that old classic “You fat stupid bitch” They tried to force me into Admssions, but thankfully I was already moving abroad.
Many, many years ago, when pc still meant a bloke in uniform, a voluptuous young teacher came to work in the same school as me. She had a way with them, one lad told her to Piss off, her response was Off where? His broad forehead was very furrowed as he pondered this and his mates laughed at him, so that was a good result.
Another scrote told her I'll get you dun, I'll say you forced me to have sex with you in the storeroom. She drew herself up to her 5' 2", looked him slowly up and down and said You should be so bloody lucky!
I do agree though, I escaped 12 years ago and would hate to be in teaching now, there are no sanctions open to teachers, you can't even yell at them and their thick parents will always be there to back them up, usually the only time that this sort of parent set foot into school.
Yes, at times, facilitated by some pretty awful parents who will put the blame on everyone but their child/ themselves. Forcing some excellent teachers out of jobs.
I actually phoned the local Headteacher and said I'd been on the 3.30 bus and you could hear his face drop, What have they done now? When I said that I was wanting to say how well behaved they were I think that he almost fell off his chair, apparently he only ever got calls saying they'd done something deemed wrong, usually been a bit noisy. A little bit of praise can go a long way.
Yes you have got to love a false allegation threat. They get increasingly creative. I accidentally walked into a colleagues altercation with a student and thank god I did! In the space of an hour my poor colleague was up in front of the head for a false allegation around a child protection issue. I was there as was my technician so we were able to witness for her. It was appalling! She was so incredibly grateful and it made me so sad. The woman could have lost her job over the lies the girl told! I think parents would be appalled at how their darlings behave at school. Parents moan about not being able to control their brood and yet have no idea how hard it is to control and occasionally actually teach 30 of them.
Totally agree OP. Hence the glossy TV ads inviting people to become teachers because it's such a wonderful and rewarding job, my arse it is.
Why are the DOE spending thousands on encouraging people to come into teaching? Because teaching has a massive retention problem. It's not lack of qualified and experienced teachers, it's because they're leaving in droves.
Same in nursing, probation, police, social work etc etc. I'm not and never have been a teacher btw. Just an observer and parent of a school aged child.
Those who remain in the profession deserve a medal and to have their salaries doubled.
The teachers on MN who are at the end of their rope with poor behaviour - what would you like done about it? What would work? Is it more support from SLT, or a restructuring of the way behaviour is managed? Do the available sanctions of detention/isolation/exclusion not work, or are they just not applied properly? Is it lack of support from parents and carers?
I'd love to hear from secondary school teachers what they think the solution is, rather than just the problem (not that I'm objecting to anybody venting about behaviour!)
Sanctions that the child actually doesn't like! My partners school (high demand grammar school) does Community service after school for low level issues which includes cleaning up, litter picking etc. It's brilliant. Tidy school and kids extremely adverse to doing something to trigger it!! But I'm sure there would be an uproar from the human rights parent brigade about the health and safety risk of picking up a crisp packet.
Do you think litter picking is going to solve the nation-wide crisis in school discipline, though? I have nothing against it, as a sanction, provided it's not abused (and I am against no-notice detentions as they can lead to genuine safeguarding failures) but some of the real hard-nut kids I have encountered wouldn't be cowed in the least by picking up crisp packets. They'd rather do that than sit in silence in the isolation room. In fact, so would my boys (although they have never had detention - yet)
tillytrotter really? Do you not think children are praised enough? That's obviously the problem then. But seriously, you phoned the headmaster to say they were well behaved? Humans out in public behaving in a socially acceptable way shouldn't need to be praised ffs.
I left teaching because of the self entitled behaviour and the awful attitudes of children and parents alike. OP, you're exactly right, teachers have no rights at all and are at the mercy of the students they teach. Great if the kids are nice I suppose.
No but the time wasting and administration in relation to setting detention is mad.
Write in planner. Write in sims. Email / letter sent home. Leave last lesson to chase student and escort to detention. Set detention work. Supervise detention. If student doesn't show up rinse and repeat. It's more of a punishment for teachers than students. And litter picking is about status with tough kids. They wear a high vis vest and serve community service at lunch times and break as well as after school.
It's often getting on top of low level behaviour that helps to stop it escalating to high level. If there is an effective and smoothly run mechanism that helps manage the run of the mill stuff it frees up staff to deal with the more serious problems. It's definitely the ethos of the school. I'm lucky one of mine is whole student and responsible well rounded citizen focused. The other a results factory. Citizen school kids ask if you need help, pick up rubbish and respect staff and school property. Results factory you get told to fuck off if you ask someone to pick up litter they just dropped. I seem to be focusing a lot on litter here (?) lol but it's an indicator of the ethos of the school.
Yanbu to say pupils behaviour is awful if that's what you experience but Yabu to say they have more rights. Surely they don't actually have the right to give cheek, swear and touch you inappropriately and are disciplined for it?
It’s not the low level behaviour issues for me. It’s the answering back when they’re called on it, or the rude “errr but was it me though nar mate didn’t fink so” responses that are so wearing and depressing.
Some senior leaders can be a problem - fannying around placating kids.
Some parents can be a problem of course.
Some teachers can be a problem too.
There is almost no discourse for teacher protection. If someone swears at you etc at some awful schools you get questioned about your behaviour management technique. If a pupil touches you it's your word against theirs and more often then not their word is gospel. Not yours. I've been stroked, prodded, shoulder barged and had a pencil (and hand!) slid into the lower pocket of my apron. I've also been locked in a room by 5 16 year olds ordering me to hand over a confiscated phone! I had to shout for help and fortunately a care taker heard me. If I had so much as touched one child cornering me in a locked room there would have been an investigation into child protection and I would have come out of it with a mark on my record and the kid in question sent to isolation to play games / watch YouTube videos all day. That school was terrifying.
That sounds horrendous, and frightening
So it's not necessarily that the sanctions are inadequate, or that the kids have more rights on paper, but that weak management and poor implementation means that the kids effectively get away with murder?
In my children's school isolation means silence. No phones, no games, no Youtube.
As OP says it's basic rights. In a normal job you can refuse to deal with clients and whoever if they are rude to you or threaten you. At school your expected to deal with it and face them the next day. I don't have any answers but most of it boils down to children being raised to respect adults and respect the privilege of education. It's currently free and abused. Parents at private schools or desirable schools are tough on their kids because they want to keep them there. Some parents treat school as free day care.
It’s not just teachers;
I was School Nurse at a very prestigious girls school for a couple of terms. One of the existing rules that I tightened up on was that prescriptions should not be collected during morning breaks. Mornings were a really busy time for the surgery so to be constantly interrupted to dispense was not working. ( urgent stuff like antibiotics was always run over to the Housemistress to give straight away, we are talking contraceptive pills and other ongoing stuff here) one morning I turned away a couple of sixth formers asking them to came back at lunchtime. They got very mouthy saying as I walked off “you have to give us our medication when WE ask for it. We do pay your wages you know”
Next thing I knew I had a phone call from the headmistress. The girls had called their parents who had complained to her. She was apologetic but said they like to keep the ( fee paying) parents happy. With back up like that you can imagine that I gave notice swiftly.
Ugh I guess that's the opposite end of education so rude!
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