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To think it's a bit weird to expect a guy to make the first move and pay for dinner

(170 Posts)
Skustew Sat 03-Feb-18 08:54:40

If you post memes on bookface talking about treating both genders equally?

I understand some people are a bit old school and their idea of how men should treat a woman comes from the 50s. But why can't some people see the double standards they have?

FlibbertyGiblets Sat 03-Feb-18 09:09:07

Stew just take no notice. If Facebook is upsetting you then delete your account.

Gwenhwyfar Sat 03-Feb-18 09:11:42

There's a difference between wanting equality in society and what you want in your own life. I could never make the first move, so it would have to be the man or nobody.

PinkHeart5914 Sat 03-Feb-18 09:12:52

Some people are like that though aren’t they? Some only want equality when it suits them

Of course a man shouldn’t be expected to pay

Skustew Sat 03-Feb-18 10:08:09

I didn't say it was upsetting, I find human physiology fascinating.

Gwen that isn't wanting the man to make the first move, it's wanting the more confident person to and isn't so much to do with gender more your own personality. And there's nothing wrong with that

x2boys Sat 03-Feb-18 10:12:11

There was a fairly long thread about this recently and a surprising amount of people thought men should pay on the first date and they are stingey if they don't hmm

Gwenhwyfar Sat 03-Feb-18 10:13:54

"Gwen that isn't wanting the man to make the first move, it's wanting the more confident person to and isn't so much to do with gender more your own personality. And there's nothing wrong with that"

Not sure it is really. I think men are brought up with the idea that they will be the ones who ask and that rejection is not personal. There's also the 'sewing his wild oats' thing so that if a man asks a woman out he can always see it as that, whereas if you're more of a romantic person like me (and how many women are brought up) a rejection is more important, if you see what I mean. It's not just about more confident and less confident person.
To be honest too, I'd be scared that asking a man out would make it seem as if I were 'up for it', when I might just think I'd like to get to know him better.
We're in a culture where men usually do the asking out, so a woman doing it might be understood differently.

SpiritedLondon Sat 03-Feb-18 10:25:48

I work in a very male dominated industry and I’ve talked to some of my colleagues about this issue. Some of them are very committed to the idea of “ taking a lady out” In which they pay for drinks or dinner which ties in with their ideas about being a gentleman. Even going out for team drinks with them I find some of them resistant to the idea of women getting the round in. I think they’d be very happy to be asked out by a lady though ( and this is probably the time we would see their “ liberal” attitude to fidelity in full swing) I am talking about men in their 40s though so I expect younger men will probably not hold quite the same views.

SpiritedLondon Sat 03-Feb-18 10:28:58

We do live in a society that holds men and women to different standards though - ie sex on the first date, blaming women for “ stealing” married men. So simply going Dutch in itself does not make some wonderful egalitarian society.

DakotaWest Sat 03-Feb-18 10:38:50

I believe in equality in rights, which we have in this country (studying, jobs, bank account, property ownership, same rights in the marriage etc). As a woman, you have absolutely the same rights than a man. You can even start "women only" anything, when the "male only" equivalent would not be accepted.

I don't believe that men and women are the same though, so I am also in favour of the old-fashion chivalry. Personally I would never have made the first move, but I also think that who invites pays the bill.

wakemeupbefore Sat 03-Feb-18 11:00:23

^

What Dakota said with knobs on....

g1itterati Sat 03-Feb-18 11:24:05

Expecting a man to "make the first move and pay for dinner" is not "weird" as far as I'm concerned. It's the very least I'd expect tbh. But then I'm 40 and never did OLD or Tinder (and thank god I missed out on all that, by the sound of things).

Skustew Sat 03-Feb-18 12:50:09

But don't you see the conflict between wanting equality rights for some things then wanting to be treated differently for others?

I can't stand chivalry, why would I need a man to open a car door for me or always walk on the inside of the pavement?

TheStoic Sat 03-Feb-18 12:52:26

I can't stand chivalry, why would I need a man to open a car door for me or always walk on the inside of the pavement?

Nobody needs those things. Some people like them, some people don’t.

Bluntness100 Sat 03-Feb-18 12:55:07

Agree with you op, double standards. It's I want equality when it benefits me.

I think not wanting to ask a man out is fine, I think that's less about equality and more about confidence, but expecting to be paid simply because you're a woman is nauseating.

Bluntness100 Sat 03-Feb-18 12:55:22

Sorry that should be paid for.

DakotaWest Sat 03-Feb-18 13:01:05

But don't you see the conflict between wanting equality rights for some things then wanting to be treated differently for others?

As long as we are biologically different, as long as expectation in sports and physical tests are different, as long as women have babies... and so on, then no, I don't see any conflict between equality in rights and recognising differences between the genders.

I like old-fashion manners.

g1itterati Sat 03-Feb-18 13:06:45

No because "equality" is not the same thing as "sexless" or "gender neutral". It's too simplistic an argument.

Skustew Sat 03-Feb-18 13:13:42

Bluntness100 totally agree. Some want these "old fashioned manners" but only on certain things where it suits them. There's no biological reason for the vast vast majority of things that are seen as chivalrous.

MyBrilliantDisguise Sat 03-Feb-18 13:18:25

I always get very torn on this. I don't need someone to pay for me (financially) - I can afford to do it. I've always paid my share in relationships and have been very generous. When I divorced that was something he specifically mentioned, that money had never been an issue between us and it's remained like that now. I could probably call him up and ask for a loan now and he'd be fine.

However, there's something about splitting bills that I really don't like. If I went out with someone who put down half the money I would think he didn't want to see me again. If I put down half it would be because I didn't want to see him again. If he bought one thing eg cinema, I'd happily buy drinks, but I don't want to sit there saying, "You owe this and I owe that." It's not romantic. It puts you on the level, not even of friends, but of people who have no relationship.

And to be honest, I don't want a guy who wants the woman to pay the bill on a first date. Again, it's not romantic. That's when everyone's supposed to be at their best. I'd see it as a bit pathetic, to be honest. As though he was a child.

It's nothing to do with the money, it's the role you take on.

I find passive men very unattractive, too. If a man didn't have the wherewithal to ask me out, I wouldn't be interested. I can see if you met someone (eg on a train) and you were chatting, either might say "Fancy going for a drink?" and that's fine, but for the guy to sit back and wait to be invited - it's not what I'd want in a bloke.

Birdsgottafly Sat 03-Feb-18 13:20:13

"But don't you see the conflict between wanting equality rights for some things then wanting to be treated differently for others?"

People have the right to make choices about their personal life whilst campaigning for equality to protect the right of others to choose.

I won't make the first move, but I split any costs. I have the right to make that choice whilst not having my sexual behavior judged, or defending a Woman making the first move.

Bluntness100 Sat 03-Feb-18 13:20:54

As long as we are biologically different, as long as expectation in sports and physical tests are different, as long as women have babies... and so on, then no, I don't see any conflict between equality in rights and recognising differences between the genders

Right, so what part of that dictates a man should pay for you and you shouldn't have to put your hand in your pocket?

How in gods name is physical gender differential related to being paid for on dates? Are you not as capable as a man of earning a living? Not as capable as a man of paying your way?

Because I certainly am and I'm proud of it.

TheStoic Sat 03-Feb-18 13:23:58

Right, so what part of that dictates a man should pay for you and you shouldn't have to put your hand in your pocket?

And what part of the law dictates this? None? So it’s not a matter of ‘equality’, it’s a matter of personal preference.

TheBrilliantMistake Sat 03-Feb-18 13:24:25

It's little wonder men get so many mixed messages.
I was hounded for suggesting there is nothing wrong with finding a woman attractive and telling her so. Somebody has to make the first move right?
Men don't want to feel like predators just for making that first move.

I've read stuff from women talking about men at work who've asked them out and they say it's creepy at work. Then they've said it's creepy to do it on a night out...

And if a woman makes the first approach... she's a loose woman!

I know the majority don't think or feel this way, but there's enough who do. You'd think they actually don't want men and women to ever get together!

DakotaWest Sat 03-Feb-18 13:25:09

If absolutely nothing else, even if you invite someone for diner in what you think is a perfectly averaged-price restaurant, the bill might be far too high for them. Totally unreasonable to expect anyone to pay the bill when you invite them on a first date.

That aside, I don't want to be treated like a man, I don't want my sons and daughters to be treated the same way as long as they have the same rights. I don't know, I expect any student to have access to the swimming pool lessons. However, I also expect teenage girls to be treated with some consideration, if they need it, when they have their periods.

I wouldn't ask a man on a first date, I don't want to. It sounds to me like many women who claim equality a bit too loudly are the ones who end up complaining against mental load and unequal share of work at home. The most polite and well-mannered men I've met privately and professionally are the most considerate and pleasant men to work with (I haven't lived with all of them! but I can think of more than a few examples with wives having high-profile careers too)

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