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to be sick of all the man/boy hate.

(711 Posts)
churchoflego Wed 24-Jan-18 09:55:13

What the hell is going on? Men are not the devil. Boys are not the devil. I have sons and all I read is how as white males they are basically considered the spawn of satan. When did males become the enemy? Surely there are good and bad individuals who happen to be male or female?

I was horribly bullied at school by females and again at work by females, however, I don't consider all females to be evil. They were horrible individuals who happened to be female.

It's really depressing and scary.

TheVanguardSix Wed 24-Jan-18 09:56:34

I'm with you all the way.

We'll get flamed any minute now.

Idontdowindows Wed 24-Jan-18 09:56:45

It's about boys and men as a class, not about individual boys and men.

If I say "men commit virtually all violent crime on the planet", I'm talking about the class of men, not about each individual male.

NewYearNewMe18 Wed 24-Jan-18 09:56:59

I thoroughly agree.

ZigZagIntoTheBlue Wed 24-Jan-18 09:59:02

I have son's, my friend with daughters can't understand why it makes me uncomfortable that she's teaching her daughter's to say "boys stink!" and think it's so funny. If one of mine went to school making sweeping statements about girls like that he'd get in trouble!!

SleepingStandingUp Wed 24-Jan-18 09:59:08

It is scary because then our boys grow up I na world where that is the expected rather than the exception. They need to know that most men are decent and therefore they'd better be bloody decent too. And girls need to grow up knowing that it isn't just a man thing - to shout, take ask the money, hit you, rape you, abuse the kids because it's just all men then what is the point in leaving or reporting?

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle Wed 24-Jan-18 10:02:50

But how can we call it out if we can't name the problem??

It is mainly men who commit violence....statistically thats a fact.

I live in a house with my son, male partner and Dad, I have a lot of male friends.

I still say that men as a class are an issue.

If I have to clarify everything with "not all men" all the time it gets fucking tedious.
We know it's not all men, but it is mostly men.

And seeing as white men still have the upper hand in the world, and have had for millennia....It's hardly like they're some poor downtrodden group under attack, is it??

heyHoney Wed 24-Jan-18 10:07:29

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FizzyGreenWater Wed 24-Jan-18 10:07:42

I have a fab DH and DC, fab male friends and relatives.

Men as a class are a problem.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace Wed 24-Jan-18 10:09:54

I don't see my daughters at school with boys who think they're inferior or the spawn of the devil. I don't see girls thinking boys are irrelevant or inferior, or boys taking on that message.

I see plenty of pleasant, decent, boys and men, but I also see some with a strong sense of unchallenged and unacknowledged male privilege. I see them dominating conversations, shutting down the voices of women and girls. I don't think we need to worry about the lads getting inferiority complexes just yet.

whiskyowl Wed 24-Jan-18 10:11:52

It's the difference between the personal and the structural.

There are some horrible men around, but there are also many, many lovely, decent, honest men in the world, individually.

There are also systems of gender relations, and powerful institutions and structures, that are skewed to discriminate against women in a variety of ways (the gender pay gap, for instance). It's important to note that this discrimination may actually also damage decent men, too.

Idontdowindows Wed 24-Jan-18 10:12:42

How is naming the FACT that virtually all violence on this planet is committed by the CLASS of men "hatred".

It's NOT about individuals. It's about a CLASS.

For goodness sake, do they not teach class analysis in schools anymore?

The CLASS of women bears children. This FACT is not diminised by the FACT that SOME women do not bear children. It is a matter of CLASS.

Holy cow.

DriggleDraggle Wed 24-Jan-18 10:12:52

when did males become the enemy?

well, quite a while back tbh. many hundreds, thousands of years. what with all the oppression and the rape and the abuse and the wars and the murdering and the not allowing women to vote and the burning of women who didnt tow the line (witch witch!) ...

there is a difference between individuals and 'the big picture'

individually there are some bloody fabulous men out there. and many many more not perfect but not malicious, just plodding on with their lives not trying to hurt anyone.

but as a group, as a class, men kill, abuse, rape and oppress women.
not all men. not every man. but any man. and enough men and often enough that it is possible to accurately say - with evidence to back it up - that the majority of killers are men. that the majority of abusers are men. that the majority of people who kill their partner or ex are men. that the majority of family annihilators are men.

this is not the same as saying that the majority of men are killers or the majority of men are rapists.

there is a very important distinction between saying
the majority of men are...
the majority of .. are men.

it completely changes what is actually being said and it is important to not hear one when in fact it is the other that is being said.

the majority of leaders are men. the majority of power is in the hands of men.

etc etc and depressingly etc etc etc

it isnt about, individually men can be great. my sons are bloody fabulous. my husband is great.

but that doesnt change the fact that as a group, men have been responsible for the vast majority of the awful things through the entire history of the species.

LanaKanesLeftNippleTassle Wed 24-Jan-18 10:13:46

No one has used the word hate...except those who are trying to claim that looking at facts and stating them is somehow "hate".

Oh if only we were nicer to the poor, poor menz, that marginalised group of people with no power, no strength and who are made to suffer.....

Maybe if men don't want to be seen as shitbags, they should stop doing shitty fucking things, or call out those who do.

It's interesting that whenever I get chatting to someone who whines about all the "poor hated menz" they often seem to be very reluctant to call out all the men they know who behave like shits.

Men could fix this if they wanted to....but noooo..

It's us who need to be nicer and stop speaking truth to fucking power.

Camomila Wed 24-Jan-18 10:14:08

I have a DS and a lovely DH.

I have no problem with people saying 'men as a class do most of x, y, z' because it's true.

Because of feminists today calling out all the horrible things men as a class do, it's less likely that my DS will end up as a violent/entitled/prejudiced adult.

So thanks mumsnet feminists smile

ColinFlower Wed 24-Jan-18 10:14:23

There is a problem with male violence, you have to accept that.

I do agree it can be a bit man hatey which isn't helpful.

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace Wed 24-Jan-18 10:16:26

It's a recent thing, isn't it, this labelling of any ideas you don't like or don't agree with as 'hate'?

It's very convenient, because you get to suggest they only come from a place of visceral emotion rather than reason, and you also get to shut them down, and to label the person as a 'hater' and therefore not worth listening to.

stitchglitched Wed 24-Jan-18 10:17:43

I have a son, partner and father who I adore. That doesn't take away from the fact that male violence is a massive problem and that men are overwhelmingly responsible for the vast majority of violent crime and sexual violence. What is wrong with pointing out these facts and discussing them? How will anything ever change if we can't name the problem?

Andromeida29 Wed 24-Jan-18 10:25:22

My partner is male and I am surrounded by wonderful males in the form of family, friends and colleagues. I also work with DV victims and see how the vast majority of abusers are male. Why shouldn't males be aware of these facts? I was having a relationships talk with my 16 year old Autistic brother including consent etc. I explained that some men are violent, some men will sexually assault women and make women feel uncomfortable by not taking no for an answer. He was really quite shocked and horrified but at no point was I having a go at him for being male and he knew this.

SleepingStandingUp Wed 24-Jan-18 10:25:41

Crime is mostly committed by men not most men commit crime. Sometimes I think the distinction gets lost.

And it isn't just the big stuff.

Crap hubby who does nothing in the house? Its just men isn't it?
He slept with your sister?
They're all bloody at it!

PecanPieFace Wed 24-Jan-18 10:25:44

Oh give over. I am a heterosexual woman with a partner and a son too.

Do you really think there is no problem at all with male violence? Honestly?

uglyswan Wed 24-Jan-18 10:26:43

What's really depressing is that some people can't tell the difference between class analysis and hate. Men do not commit more violent crimes because of some innate biological trait inherent in all men, but because our horrible fucking toxic culture still celebrates violence as ultra masculine, because we live in a porn culture that dehumanises women, and because they can.

PecanPieFace Wed 24-Jan-18 10:27:22

and btw no it's not really depressing and scary. What's really depressing and scary is we still live in a world where 2 women a week are killed by a male partner or former partner.

Toffeelatteplease Wed 24-Jan-18 10:28:30

I totally agree OP

PecanPieFace Wed 24-Jan-18 10:28:34

What's really depressing is that some people can't tell the difference between class analysis and hate. Men do not commit more violent crimes because of some innate biological trait inherent in all men, but because our horrible fucking toxic culture still celebrates violence as ultra masculine, because we live in a porn culture that dehumanises women, and because they can.

100% that.

No one has ever said that all men are inherently evil or anything. But we live in a culture which glorifies toxic masculinity. Misogyny is a thread which runs through literally every element of our society. A lot of it is incredibly subtle.

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