to propose this brilliant plan to make faith school applications a bit less unfair?

[ArcheryAnnie]

So there's always a lot of to-ing and fro-ing between people who support faith schools giving priority to people of that faith, and people who think it's unfair. How about this for a solution?

Say in a particular borough there are three faith schools and three non-faith schools. Children in families of that faith can apply to all six schools with a fair chance of getting into any of them, and children of no faith (or a different faith) can apply to all of them, but only have a fair chance of getting into the three non-faith schools, and a very low chance of getting into the three faith schools. This obviously means that children in faith families have greater choice than children from non-faith families, which isn't fair.

In order to get into a faith school in a faith place (a priority place) you usually have to fill in something like a clergy form, which bumps you up the list and marks you out as a faith application. You aren't forced to fill in this form and apply for a faith priority place if you don't want to: even if you are of that faith and are applying to a faith school - you can just throw your lot in with the rest of the non-faith applicants and hope for the best.

How about that, if you fill in a clergy form for a faith school in order to get priority over children from non-faith families, you then don't get priority in the non-faith schools? So in the non-faith schools, if there were two applicants for whom other things (distance, siblings, etc) were equal, the one who hadn't applied for a faith place anywhere else would be the one to get priority.

This would level the playing ground, and give all the children an equal chance of a school place of their choice. And faith families would still be a bit better off than the non-faith families, as the faith families could choose to thrown their lot in with everybody equally, or go down the clergy-form, faith priority place route.

[soupmaker]

On the other hand....abolish faith schools and kids go to their nearest school end off.

[ArcheryAnnie]

soupmaker that's my preferred option, hands down, but it won't happen anytime soon. In the meantime, I think my BRILLIANT PLAN will help level the playing field.

[Izzabellasasperella]

On the other hand....abolish faith schools and kids go to their nearest school end off.
This.

[PhilODox]

Or how about getting rid of faith schools altogether, and making people that wish to indoctrinate their children pay for the privilege or do it themselves?

[annandale]

I don't know many places with a genuine choice of six schools. We are a choicy area and my real choice was between 3, which is better than most.

I know quite a few religious families who object to faith schools and actively choose not to send their child to one. I don't think we should aim to segregate children from religious families vs nonreligious families.

[EmmaGrundyForPM]

I'm a Christian. I would abolish faith schools tomorrow if I could.

[C0untDucku1a]

Why would a family who want a faith school Be bothered about the non-faith school though?

[mercurymaze]

i most definitely think faith has no place in schools. It's a bit odd that we promote inclusion and shut all specialist schools yet faith schools are allowed to flourish, pick and choose and have the most antiquated admissions criteria.

[ArcheryAnnie]

annandale in my borough there are six state secondary schools. Five are faith schools. Of these five, if you are not of the right faith there is NO chance you will get into four of them. The fifth does reserve 50% of places for non-faith applicants. So for non-faith or different faith applicants, you only have one-and-a-half schools to choose from, not six.

(And yes I agree with everyone who said faith schools should be abolished. But in the meantime....)

[ArcheryAnnie]

Why would a family who want a faith school Be bothered about the non-faith school though?

C0unt there's plenty of people who just want the best local school, or the nearest local school, or the school that's on the bus route, or whatever, and don't care about the faith or non-faith aspects. In my area, the concern is that you won't get a school place at all, and will be forced to travel ages to go to a school in another borough that nobody in that borough wants to go to, either.

[drspouse]

In most cities, children can't go to the nearest school because the schools can't keep expanding as new families move in or housing is built etc.
So that's a non-starter.
When families have to put a choice of 3 schools and of the ones that are close, 1 is faith, they are a family of faith, and there's faith priority, then obviously they'll put the form in AND apply for the non-faith schools.
With so many faith schools, it's impractical currently to get rid of them all. But I agree there's no reason for church-going to make a difference.
Some faith schools are not over-subscribed and some are indeed frankly awful (one of each group near us!).
But eliminating this would probably just increase the number of families moving to desirable areas just before applying i.e. selection by postcode not church attendance.

[Ttbb]

That is only going to make the class and race segregation resulting from faith schools worse. Tbf the tax payer really shouldn't be funding them at all.

[mercurymaze]

There really does need to be a major education reform. it's quite mad that children are bussed out of borough to attend schools that meet their 'religious' requirements. Yet other children who really do need specialist teaching are expected to go to a school that cannot meet their needs.

[ArcheryAnnie]

That is only going to make the class and race segregation resulting from faith schools worse.

How, Ttbb?

[PinkyBlunder]

No. For state schools, faith or no faith, the admissions process should be exactly the same - siblings, distance, SEN etc. NO faith category.

If people want their kids to go to a faith school that has religious people only, it should be private and paid for.

[mercurymaze]

yes pinky agree 100%

[goodbeans]

"the tax payer really shouldn't be funding them at all."

Precisely.

[BarbarianMum]

Easier to keep them open but remove their ability to select by faith. Bet they'd all be gone in 10 years if you did that.

[TheHungryDonkey]

Jesus has no place in the admissions system. St Mary Redcliffe, giving you a hard look.

[errorofjudgement]

Absolutely agree, provided you agree to abolish grammar schools, “free” schools, & single sex schools at exactly the same time.

[pisacake]

YABU.

Your premise is wrong.

Reality is more like this:

1 school you can only get in if you are a mega-millionaire living next door to the school
1 school you can only get into if you swore an oath to Pope John-Paul in 1985
1 school you get into if you live within a mile of the door
2 schools you can get into from anywhere but you wouldn't want to because they are shit

Whole system is bollocks.

[HolyShet]

It would be very straightforward to require schools to remove their "faith" admission criteria.

The only reason they still exist relates to the establishment of compulsory state education - apparently the churches objected to this as it wrested the minds of the impressionable young away from church control so they were allowed to continue to provide schools.

[WaxOnFeckOff]

In most cities, children can't go to the nearest school

And yet it more or less works in Scotland including the larger cities...

I agree, they need to keep religion of any sort out of schools. Why are we allowing organisations with massive child abuse issues to run schools? It's fucking mad.

[DivisionBelle]

ArcheryAnnie, I will vote for your proposal unless the PinkyBlunder amendment is adopted.

[ArcheryAnnie]

Absolutely agree, provided you agree to abolish grammar schools, “free” schools, & single sex schools at exactly the same time.

You're on, errorof! I quite like single-sex school options for girls, if they want them, but grammar schools and free schools can do one.

All the rest of you - I agree! Faith criteria should be dropped altogether. But because it won't happen anytime soon, I think we need a bridging measure. I think that once the ability to apply for a faith place at a faith school doesn't bring any inherent advantage overall, just for specific schools, it'll chip away at the support for keeping faith-priority applications.