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TED deleted my comment on transgender talk.

(25 Posts)
TheOnlyWayToEatSandwiches Mon 20-Nov-17 09:33:23

I thought TED was a place for open debate but on this talk:

www.ted.com/talks/jackson_bird_how_to_talk_and_listen_to_transgender_people/discussion

I posted approximately this comment:

"Gender is a social construct. The trans movement on the one hand say they promote and celebrate a spectrum of human expression, and on the other say that someone who plays with dolls and likes pink, but has a penis, may in fact be a female. This is polarising rather than freeing.

There is a problem. The trans community feel that problem. But the problem is not that people have been born in the wrong body. The problem is that society is not accepting of people behaving differently from gender stereotypes.

The trans movement is, ironically, actually actively making this worse, not better; for everyone."

It remained in the comment section for about 5 days and then, without any notification, was deleted.

People may not agree with my point of view - I was happy to debate it with them.

AIBU to think it should not have been deleted?

PS. I'm not BU! Posting here as I'm annoyed and wanted to get it off my chest I suppose. Thank you for the space to vent.

brasty Mon 20-Nov-17 09:54:56

No you are not BU to be annoyed. Suspect they deleted it for "transphobia"

speakout Mon 20-Nov-17 09:58:34

A valid point and I totally agree.

speakout Mon 20-Nov-17 10:01:06

I grew up feeling that I was male.

I preferred digging holes. Getting muddy. I hate handbags.As an adult I pursued a technical career, very often being the only female in work groups. I am heterosexual, but always felt " odd" in the way that I thought and behaved.
I now realise that it is a problem with society and not with me.

wheresmymojo Mon 20-Nov-17 10:21:14

I'm shocked that it was deleted...a very valid point IMO and not at all transphobic.

The way debate is being censored is outrageous.

liminality Mon 20-Nov-17 10:22:39

ho hum another one of these threads. Here we go again
biscuit

Ilovelampandchair Mon 20-Nov-17 10:27:26

You basically just denied the existence of trans people. That is hate speech in my book and why you probably got deleted.

Saying that some people may be affected by strict social constructs and not actually be trans is worth a discussion/debate. What you wrote is narrow minded and cruel to people who are trans.

liminality Mon 20-Nov-17 10:29:01

Ilovelampandchair I agree, they always say they are happy to debate, but actually they just want trans people to cease to exist

Second biscuit because that is the level of rational debate likely to come out of these threads

CancellyMcChequeface Mon 20-Nov-17 10:33:50

That comment reads perfectly reasonably to me and isn't 'denying the existence of trans people.' I could see why people on the extreme end of the trans ideology would disagree with it, but that's hardly a reason to delete it.

VladmirsPoutine Mon 20-Nov-17 10:38:04

ho hum another one of these threads. Here we go again.

I don't understand these sorts of comments. It's quite clear from the title what the thread will be about. Why not just avoid them. Tbh I'd even go so far as to say that those that take issue with these sorts of threads are trying to stifle debate.

I'd rather a trans thread any day of the week than a bloody parking thread or a 'my MIL is actually satan' thread. FFS, just don't click.

BertrandRussell Mon 20-Nov-17 10:40:37

I am absolutely desperate to discuss and debate. Even more so today. I don't want trans people to cease to exist. I want to find a way for us all to coexist.

But I can never get answers to the questions I have on trans issues, and there are things that disturb me. For example. Is it transphobic for a lesbian to refuse to have sex with a trans woman solely because she is a trans woman? Should transwomen be allowed to compete freely in women's sport? Should scholarships and so on that were intended to address the underrepresentation of women in particular fields be open to trans women? Do you think a 19year old trans woman is in a position to represent women and argue for women's issues in a political party?

That's just 4 to be going on with- I have more, but I don't want to overface anyone.....

thecatsthecats Mon 20-Nov-17 10:43:28

YANBU. One of the things I dislike about the spectrum of genders is that I have had definitions forced upon me online that are based on how I dress and present myself to the world when to my mind, there's no incompatibility whatsoever to calling me a woman and having those traits.

A woman doesn't have to fit to a particular mould to be considered a woman. A transperson doesn't have to conform slavishly to the 'traits' of womanhood to legitimately transition.

thecatsthecats Mon 20-Nov-17 10:43:52

YANBU. One of the things I dislike about the spectrum of genders is that I have had definitions forced upon me online that are based on how I dress and present myself to the world when to my mind, there's no incompatibility whatsoever to calling me a woman and having those traits.

A woman doesn't have to fit to a particular mould to be considered a woman. A transperson doesn't have to conform slavishly to the 'traits' of womanhood to legitimately transition.

TieGrr Mon 20-Nov-17 10:51:15

I think posting that comment on a talk aimed at educating people how to speak to trans people respectfully was not the place. It's related to the issue, yes, but goes against the spirit of the talk.

Ilovelampandchair Mon 20-Nov-17 10:58:38

My response would be

- it's no more transphobic to not date trans women as a lesbian than it is racist to not be attracted to black men or any characteristic/physicality of people in general. The onus and right is on the person to decide who they fall for and this is a pointless thing to debate or focus on.

- Sports is tricky and needs more discussion and research. I'd be keen for all underage sports to be mixed as a start. I'd also like to see more mixed adult sports where possible. It could be a disaster but I do wonder if trans could compete and be beaten. What is their margin of advantage? If a trans person transitioned in early teen years, would hormone blockers have equalised the advantage? This needs research.

- no problem with scholarships going to trans women. But then I'm happy to consider trans women as simply women.

- I don't think a 19yr old is experienced enough to represent any group of people on a serious platform. In terms of her being trans, it doesn't worry me as long as she does her job.

SweetheartTreacleTart Mon 20-Nov-17 10:59:36

I think the comment/post should have remained and been open to criticism. We should be free to express our opinions and hear those that oppose our views too.

BertramTheWalrus Mon 20-Nov-17 11:05:51

Is it transphobic for a lesbian to refuse to have sex with a trans woman solely because she is a trans woman?
How can that be transphobic? If you're not attracted to male genitalia, why would you want to have sex with a trans woman? And even if that was after gender reassignment surgery, surely it is possible to not feel attracted to surgically produced genitalia. Just like some men find breasts after augmentation surgery unattractive, some people find skinny or fat people unattractive... (I'm leaving love out of the equation of course!)

CancellyMcChequeface Mon 20-Nov-17 11:08:25

I'd be keen for all underage sports to be mixed as a start.

To clarify, do you mean pre-puberty, or under 18? Because I'm all for the former, but the latter would drastically reduce the number of teenage girls participating in sport. I can't imagine many would want to join a rugby team, for instance, where they'd be expected to play against teenage boys.

BertrandRussell Mon 20-Nov-17 11:13:46

"I'd be keen for all underage sports to be mixed as a start."

Why?

SlowlyShrinking Mon 20-Nov-17 11:17:29

I would actually like trans people to cease to exist. What I would like is for people to not feel so restricted by the confines of gender that they feel they have to take really serious medication that can have the effect of permanent sterilisation and increase the risk of heart disease and cancer. I’d really like it if men and women felt that they could dress in whatever they wanted without feeling that this meant they had to claim to be a member of the opposite sex. I would really like it if some gay men didn’t feel that it’s easier for them to pretend to be female because society still doesn’t completely accept homosexuality.
I would like it if people could just be themselves. In saying that if society was more accepting of difference then I believe people wouldn’t feel the need to identify as trans, I don’t in any way wish any harm to trans people. I accept that identifying as trans is imo an imperfect solution to the problem of rigid gender roles in our society, ie that people can’t imagine that a man can wear a dress and still be a man.

araiwa Mon 20-Nov-17 11:31:57

Hardly an appropriate place for such a comment was it?

Genevieva Mon 20-Nov-17 11:32:23

You made a really good point and I don't think it was transphobic at all.

Personally, I think women's sport should be protected as a biological category, as when someone is dependent on artificial hormone injections, these can be tweaked to enhance performance. I am very much in favour of a third category for anyone who is taking hormone supplements / is trans / gender fluid... and at any point in their personal journey. As someone said up post, there isn't enough research and, to be honest, when a trans participant has a y chromosome in every cell of their body and a male skeleton, it is hard to believe that hormone injections can ever make enough of a difference.

I have to admit that, while I accept that some people experience a disconnect between their physical body and their sense of self, I struggle with underpinning of trans identity from a philosophical and theoretical point of view.

Broadly, theories about the self and identity fall into two categories - monistic and dualistic. Dualism tends to be found in religions that teach belief in a soul that is separate from the body and survives the death of the physical body. I suppose that if that soul is gendered (not sure of any religions in which it is) then someone could say they had a female soul in a male body. Religions also have other teachings and tends to promote traditional family values so need reinterpretation to accommodate transgender ideas.

Atheistic world views tend to be monistic - what exists does so empirically and materially: We are our bodies and there is no intangible soul, thought is a product of electrical activity in the brain... Now, if we are our bodies, then our biology is inescapable. We can present ourselves in different ways. We can even have operations and take hormones to create an appearance of something other than our biology, but our chromosomes will not change. We can't grow organs we don't have and we can't know what it feels like to be fundamentally different.

These are just abstract theoretical ramblings that don't really touch on people's daily lives, but they do lead me to the conclusion that transgender issues need to be dealt with separately from women's issues. That isn't discrimination. It is about accepting and supporting everyone as they are and not pretending they are something else.

Ilovelampandchair Mon 20-Nov-17 11:40:29

Cancelly, I meant pre-puberty.

Bert, because there is no reason to segregate children and I think they would all benefit.

In my teens actually I got to play soccer, hockey and cricket in mixed situations at times. As an adult Hockey and Gaelic football. I loved it! The speed and sharpness was electric and I automatically upped my game. For sure I was weaker but I could contribute and won some of the battles. I've always thought it's a pity sports are not played mixed more.

BertrandRussell Mon 20-Nov-17 11:46:04

Most sport is mixed until secondary school. My ds played football, cricket and tag rugby with girls until he was 10. And football is mixed til 13. I'm not absolutely sure it's a good idea. The number of girls trailed off steeply after about 8ish. I suspect that more girls would have stayed on if the teams had been single sex.

shutitandtidyupgitface Mon 20-Nov-17 11:53:30

You basically just denied the existence of trans people. That is hate speech in my book and why you probably got deleted

She didn't deny anyones existence. People exist no matter what they call themselves.

You people call anything hate speech that you don't like, but that isn't how it works. You don't get to stop us talking just because we talk truth.

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