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To think Innocent until proving guilty doesn't exist in this society anymore?

(141 Posts)
adventuresinbabysitting Thu 09-Nov-17 13:44:02

Kevin Spacey's career is over.

There is no proof! If these things aren't true, where is the justice in that? I just don't get it. By all means go after him and seek justice if he has wronged you in a horrible way.

I know people will disagree, but I think it's wrong to be removing him from films etc yet.

DancesWithOtters Thu 09-Nov-17 13:47:10

How do you know there is no proof?

Are you part of the investigation?

adventuresinbabysitting Thu 09-Nov-17 13:48:02

I am assuming there has not been a trial yet? So therefore no proof?

NotJustThreeSmallWords Thu 09-Nov-17 13:49:04

I think it was an open secret that he was abusive and that is why he has been taken to task so quickly.

Austentatious Thu 09-Nov-17 13:50:56

there is a FANTASTIC novel on this subject of trial by social media and the profound effect on lives that unsubstantiated claims can have - The Allegations by Mark Lawson.

DancesWithOtters Thu 09-Nov-17 13:51:24

So until a trial has taken place all people accused of murder should be allowed to walk the streets freely?

The initial accuser plus the 8 others that came forward afterwards are all lying?

I've always loved Kevin Spacey btw, and was sad to see this. But from the many articles I have read it is doubtful that he is 100% innocent of each instance he has been accused of.

BaronessEllaSaturday Thu 09-Nov-17 13:55:24

I am assuming there has not been a trial yet? So therefore no proof?

You need proof before going to trial

BonnieF Thu 09-Nov-17 13:56:52

Agree completely.

I’m not defending Spacey, or anyone else accused of serious crimes, or disbelieving alleged victims, but there has to be due process.

The accused is entitled to know the nature of the allegations made against him and is entitled to the presumption of innocence. Sadly all this gets lost in media feeding frenzies and social media witch hunts.

adventuresinbabysitting Thu 09-Nov-17 13:57:56

I don't think anyone is lying, but I don't know they aren't.

Unfortunately it is likely these allegations are true.

Also unfortunately people can sometimes tell lies for monetary gain, or fame.

I am not victim shaming and I think it's incredibly brave to stand up to this if it's true.

A suspected murderer would be remanded in custody as they are considered a danger.

I merely feel that IF these things aren't true, it really doesn't matter now, as people have decided they are regardless.

Just my opinion.

adventuresinbabysitting Thu 09-Nov-17 13:59:25

Exactly BonnieF

Quimby Thu 09-Nov-17 14:00:03


There is in courts there’s not on Twitter

Pretty much same as always. People have always had strong opinions on court cases and rumors etc without ever having access to all the details

RebootYourEngine Thu 09-Nov-17 14:00:30

I would agree that innocent until proven guilty is no longer valid in this time. I think a lot of this has to do with the media.

Look at the Jo Yeates case. Her landlord was hounded by the press and made out like he was guilty. Everyone remembers his name but i doubt very few people remember the actual murderers name.

Cavender Thu 09-Nov-17 14:03:45

Kevin Spacey is currently under investigation by police in both the USA and the UK.

There have also been allegations made by members of staff on the House of Cards production. Netflix would risk legal action from crew members if he was allowed to continue working until all the allegations are investigated.

He is innocent until proven guilty but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t consequences for him because an allegation has been made.

It’s no different in normal jobs. If a teacher is accused of assault either on a colleague or a pupil they would be suspended while it’s investigated.

If you work in a bank and we’re accused of assault of a colleague you’d be suspended while it was investigated.

This isn’t any different, it’s just that the production in this case can’t vary in without him as he’s playing the main role.

The employers first duty is to keep all its employees safe.

Of course if you were falsely accused it’s a terrible price to pay, but would you rather an accused person continues to have the opportunity to abuse and potentially intimidate people during the investigation?

Kevin Spacey is a wealthy and influential man with access to no doubt excellent legal advice.

Ttbb Thu 09-Nov-17 14:06:04

I agree.

LurkingHusband Thu 09-Nov-17 14:07:32

So until a trial has taken place all people accused of murder should be allowed to walk the streets freely?

Er, generally yes. Unless the court where charges are bought can be given evidence of flight risk, or violent conduct, or obstruction to justice, then yes, bail is granted (which is the default position). The "freely" bit might have conditions attached, like curfews, or no-go areas, and a requirement to check in with the police. But it's an established human right that bail conditions should not be disproportionately onerous.

Or, to put it another way: if you were accused of murder, would you be happy to sit in jail for up to 12 months for a trial, only to be found not guilty ?

adventuresinbabysitting Thu 09-Nov-17 14:08:14

Cavender - excellent point. I suppose you would be suspended in other jobs too. Right or Wrong. I didn't consider that.

LaurieFairyCake Thu 09-Nov-17 14:10:51

Kevin Spacey is right at the top of his field, I honestly think he’s at great risk of doing himself harm.

The press momentum is very much against him and that will taint the jury pool if there’s ever a trial.

NauticalDisaster Thu 09-Nov-17 14:11:32

I am happy the KS allegations are finally being taken seriously, it's been an open secret for so long (I first hear it 20 years ago from a friend in theatre considered a twinkie, KS' type).

I don't have a problem with his part in the movie being recast and refilmed; I may just see the movie because of that.

MrsTerryPratchett Thu 09-Nov-17 14:13:15

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal thing. Everyone has the right to a fair trial and an impartial jury. Everyone.

However if multiple people come forward saying that someone raped or sexually abused them, they have the right to be heard and believed. Not legally believed necessarily but believed.

And although certain people were never convicted (Jimmy Saville and Michael Jackson) I wouldn’t have let them babysit. Would you?

MilkTwoSugarsThanks Thu 09-Nov-17 14:13:46

I guess the difference in a "normal" job is that usually there aren't 100million people assuming you're guilty without trial and if/when you're found not guilty you can pretty much get on with your life as before.

ChronicPainDaddy Thu 09-Nov-17 14:14:08

The thing is as well all this media attention makes it harder for people tp get a fair trial, which can result in a mistrial or even someone being found guilty being given a lesser sentrnce, look at the Bowe Bergdahl case. He was found guilty and given a suspended sentence because of the media frenzy about his trial and Donald Trumps remarks that he should be executed. I'm not saying that allegations should be kept secret or hidden away and never discussed, just that we as a society need to be aware that things said on social media can have an active affect of the justice system and procedures

MrsTerryPratchett Thu 09-Nov-17 14:14:09

Oh and accusations don’t ruin lives. See Roman Polanski.

IFellDownAHole Thu 09-Nov-17 14:15:08

I don’t think he helped himself with his ‘well, I might have done that. Don’t really remember. If I did I’m sorry and all. By the way did I tell you I’M GAY! TOTALLY GAY!’ response. It seemed hugely dismissive and an attempt at changing the subject. I can’t imagine any innocent person considering that to be any kind of reasonable response.

EvilRinguBitch Thu 09-Nov-17 14:21:07

You do have a duty of care to your other employees. If you have multiple credible accusations of assault or harrassment in your workplace and you let the alleged perpetrator continue to operate then you are making yourself liable for any harm caused. Short of allocating the accused a team of two burly middle aged chaperones to accompany him at all times, what can you do other than suspend him?

DeleteOrDecay Thu 09-Nov-17 14:22:39

A suspected murderer would be remanded in custody as they are considered a danger. *

And a suspected sex offender isn’t a danger?

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal term. People are allowed to have opinions one way or another and let’s be honest here, it’s hardly surprising that all this has come to light is it?

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