Nursing home funding?

[ReallyNotHappy76]

Hello - posting for traffic

My mother is currently in an untenable situation in a nursing home and I want to move her. I have found a lovely place where she would be safe but - although equipped for her needs - is not nursing.

Her social worker has said that she would lose her nursing funding if she went there and we'd have to pay the fees. At £11/1200 a week we can't afford that...is there anybody who knows how social services funding works/if there is a way around this to get her into the new place?

Apologies for vagueness - I don't want to out myself

[hatgirl]

The nursing component of your DMs support is paid by the NHS and not by social services. (It's about £150 a week, social services/ family funding makes up the set)

The NHS will not pay for nursing care where there isn't any on site (e.g in a non nursing home). If your mums care could be met in residential care with the nursing element provided by district nurses then this would have probably have been suggested in the first place.

Has the lovely place you have found actually assessed yournmum and said they can take her?

[Welshmaenad]

Is your mum currently in receipt of CHC funding for the entirety of her fees, or is the nursing component met by the NHS with the remainder being met by the LA/herself?

If she's been placed in a nursing g home after being assessed as needing nursing care - which isn't funded for fun, it's actually often hard to argue for - then a non nursing placement will not meet her needs. If she could be cared for in a residential placement with district nursing Services visiting then that's where she would have been placed in the first place.

[ReallyNotHappy76]

Thanks for your reply. It's really involved in terms of situation and we've had conversations but no assessment yet. The nice one said that they will speak to SW but obviously until we know if it's doable, there's no point getting my DM's hopes up/wasting their staff's time doing an assessment

My mother has dementia hence the nursing element but requires no actual nursing and certainly isn't getting any where she currently is and the new one is dementia registered

[Mishappening]

Just to be clear - is she currently being funded by SSD or by the NHS under the continuing care funding (CC) scheme?

If the latter, you may find that they will cut up a bit about a move to a residential home; however please bear in mind that CC can be paid in any setting - even in your own home, as they did for my father. I know that they try to tell you otherwise, as they are strapped for cash and will say anything to save money, but she IS entitled to it in a residential home, assuming that this is what she is already getting. The assessment is not based on the care she is receiving but on her NEEDS. It is based solely on needs and not on the manner in which the care is supplied or her financial means.

If she is not currently getting CC funding then I do not know what SS are talking about, as they do not supply funds for nursing care, but simply pay their share of her nursing home fee if she qualifies for that on financial grounds.

If she is not on CC funding via the NHS then it might be worth looking into whether she qualifies.

It is a minefield; but I used to be a SW dealing with care for disabled or elderly people and I argued our case vociferously and won - they realised I was not going to be fobbed off. I used a downloadable book about how to get CC funding that had model assessment forms that I could fill in and argue the case over each qualifying condition.

If ther is any more detail you require then do come back to me.

[ReallyNotHappy76]

I'm not sure of the terminology but her fees are entirely paid. She has never had any nursing at the current place in the years she's been there so hopefully that will be a reasonable case for being moved to somewhere safe

[Mishappening]

By the way, with my mother we were told very clearly that she needed nursing home care - she too had dementia - but all the NHs we visited for her were dire - truly dire. So we found a brilliant residential home and the hospital were very reluctant to discharge her there - but we were very clear that they could meet her needs. We discharged her there and she was happy and cared for with love and warmth till she died.

[hatgirl]

hmm

Well if your DM doesn't need the nursing component then in theory it doesn't matter if you lose it as the new home can't charge for nursing care tha isn't provided.

As a crude example if home A offers residential and nursing care and nursing care is funded at £150 pw by the NHS then residential care is (say) £500 pw and nursing care would be £650 a week in the same home.

If the local authority rates are also £500 a week then regardless of whether they need residential or nursing then the local authority will fund the care at home A as they get reimbursed by the NHS for the £150 pw week if they need nursing.

If care home B only offers dementia residential care at £1100 per week then the local authority can't get reimbursed the £150 from the NHS and will still only pay their rate of £500 per week towards the care costs. The family would be asked to provide the other £600. This is what is known as a third party top up.

That entire post is based on the assumption that your DM isn't currently in receipt of CHC and isn't currently self funding her care.

[ReallyNotHappy76]

That's exactly it, actually genuinely cared for. That's all we want. The new one has numerous members of staff up for national awards. I'm just so sick of fighting for her basic needs and want her somewhere capable and safe

[Tessliketrees]

The social worker is making no sense at all.

Does your DM pay anything towards the cost of her care atm? If so roughly how much? I only ask because this will give some idea of how she is funded then I can advise a bit better.

[Tessliketrees]

her fees are entirely paid

Missed this sorry. Has she ever been sectioned under the mental health act?

[ReallyNotHappy76]

No, her fees are paid for but I'm not 100% sure on the terminology that falls under

[ReallyNotHappy76]

I'll pm you as I don't want to discuss her private specifics in public. Messaging you now:)

[endofthelinefinally]

Self funding residents pay 40% more for care home fees than state funded residents.
At the very least you would have to make up the difference.
If SS dont agree funding you would have to pay the full amount.

[hatgirl]

Well hopefully you would know if it was CHC or section 117 funding.

The likelihood is that your mum has under the savings threshold and her care is paid for fully by the local authority.

I suspect the social worker is meaning that the care home you have chosen is more expensive than local authority rates will cover and that you will have to make up the shortfall if f she moves there AND you won't get the £150pw nursing contribution to help with that either as the homes doesnt offer nursing.

[Tessliketrees]

If she has never been sectioned she is highly likely to be CHC funded as the Local Authority would at least take part of her state pension.

It's a myth you cant get CHC funding for residential care but if a residential home can now meet her needs I would imagine that would trigger a review of this and she may lose it (I would say its even likely).

That still doesn't mean it would necessarily cost 1100/1200 pounds.

The social workers statement would be true under two circumstances I can think of -

A- She loses CHC (the social worker can't know that yet) and your mum owns her own home therefore would be self funding.

B-She loses CHC (the social worker can't know that yet) and the care home is extremely costly and there would be a top up of 11/12 hundred quid.

[ReallyNotHappy76]

At the moment all I know is that the total pw fees are £11/1200 rather than top up. The current one is the same but fully funded.

Thank you for the replies, I have only started looking at this today so need to find paperwork /details etc

[Vitalogy]

Self funding residents pay 40% more for care home fees than state funded residents Is that right!? Could I ask you where I'd find details regarding this, thank you.

[hatgirl]

But tess why would the lady have a LA social worker if she is CHC funded?

Certainly in my local authority we have nothing to do with people who are CHC funded requesting moves etc, any enquiries that came to us would be swiftly redirected back to the case managers at the NHS.

[bigredboat]

I think what they are saying is if the cost per week for the residential home is the same as the nursing home, but in the residential home she wouldn't get the funded nursing care element (FNC), then there will be a shortfall of however much the FNC is.

If the residential home is the same cost as the nursing home it is probably above what the local authority will pay.

[Tessliketrees]

But tess why would the lady have a LA social worker if she is CHC funded

Some CHC teams are integrated now.

[endofthelinefinally]

Read last weekend's Telegraph money supplement.
I know this from personal experience of 4 elderly self funding relatives.
Age UK will explain all of this too.

[endofthelinefinally]

Sorry - that was a reply to Vitalogy.
It is awful that so many people do not know that this is how the system works.

[Vitalogy]

Disgusting isn't it. I did a quick Google earlier and found a Telegraph article from 2013 regarding this, that seemed to put it at around 13% higher though.