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Gender Self Identity Law coming! MNQH and Mumsnetters: Time to pick a side

(1000 Posts)
AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:09:06

This is going to happen unless we speak out now.

Other thread in feminist chat

Fence sitters everywhere, please read, be aware of what is coming

From the Times:
Tories promote the right to choose your own sex
Transgender reforms for birth certificates
Adults will be able to change their gender legally without a doctor’s diagnosis under government plans that will transform British society.
Men will be able to identify themselves as women — and women as men — and have their birth certificates altered to record their new gender.
Ministers plan to tear up the existing rules that mean people have to live for two years as their desired gender before they can officially change sex.
A consultation on the Gender Recognition Bill, to be published in the autumn, will also include proposals to scrap the requirement that people get a formal medical diagnosis of “gender dysphoria” before applying to switch gender.
Critics warned that allowing people in effect to “self-identify” as a member of the opposite sex, while maintaining the anatomy of their birth gender, would unleash a firestorm of legal cases over access to women-only hospital wards, prisons, lavatories, changing rooms and competitive sports.
Justine Greening, the minister for women and equalities, called the move to give more rights to transgender people the third great “step forward” after equality for women and the legalisation of same-sex marriage in 2013.
The announcement is timed to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967. Greening said ministers want to “streamline and demedicalise” gender change to make it easier for people to switch their identity legally.
In future people are expected to be required only to make a statutory declaration that they intend to live in the acquired gender until death — in line with arrangements already adopted in Ireland.
The consultation will address whether those whose gender is “non-binary” should also be able to define themselves as “X” on their birth certificates.
A separate consultation in Scotland will go further than England and Wales by recommending that “non-binary” people should be able to define themselves as “X” on passports. It will also propose a cut in the age at which people can change their gender from 18 to 16.
The plans will be controversial. Prominent feminists including Germaine Greer and Dame Jenni Murray, the presenter of Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, have questioned whether men can become women even if they undergo a sex-change operation.
Stephanie Davies-Arai of Transgender Trend, a parents’ group, said: “This has huge implications for women. There will be legal cases. The most worrying thing is if any man can identify as a woman with no tests and gain access to spaces where women might be getting undressed or feel vulnerable — like women’s hospital wards, refuges and rape crisis centres — women will just stop going to these facilities.”
Self-identifying was recommended by a parliamentary committee last year chaired by the former cabinet minister Maria Miller and it has the backing of Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn.
Greening also announced the government will make it easier for gay men to give blood. At the moment men who have had sexual contact with other men are barred from donating for 12 months. That will be reduced to three months.

Ministers will launch a national survey of Britain’s estimated 1.5m LGBT people to help inform policy.
The education department has also announced £3m will be spent on “anti-homophobic and transphobic programmes”. Schools, including faith schools, will be required to include LGBT issues in relationships and sex education.
Greening, who is in a relationship with a woman, said: “This government is committed to building an inclusive society that works for everyone, no matter what their gender or sexuality.
“We will build on the significant progress we have made over the past 50 years, tackling some of the historic prejudices that still persist in our laws and giving LGBT people a real say on the issues affecting them.”
Ruth Hunt, chief executive of Stonewall, the lobbying organisation, welcomed the plans. “We need a simple process which isn’t medicalised, intrusive or demeaning,” she said.
The move will put the government on a collision course with some religious groups. Simon Calvert of the Christian Institute said: “It is worrying when the leaders of the main political parties are so out of touch with the concerns of ordinary people.
“Allowing men to self-identify as female without any medical diagnosis allows them to invade the privacy of women and girls.
“It’s time for a reality check. Some things can’t be changed. May and Corbyn want to elevate the principle of ‘gender self-declaration’. But it is wrong, it is anti-scientific and it is dangerous.”
A source who is close to Greening acknowledged that the proposed changes could be problematic. “That’s why we are going to have a consultation, so we can examine all the implications,” the source said.
A Scottish government spokeswoman said it hopes to have “new arrangements in place by 2020”.

stealtheatingtunnocks Sun 23-Jul-17 10:11:14

"I am a feminist. I've been female for a long time now. It'd be stupid not to be on my own side." ~Maya Angelou.

Seems like a sensible way to pick a side, really.

Witsender Sun 23-Jul-17 10:13:31


GnusSitOnCanoes Sun 23-Jul-17 10:15:57

Assigned, is there a formal way to protest? (As in a lobby group or similar we can support - or just a matter of lobbying our own MPs?)

formerbabe Sun 23-Jul-17 10:17:10

I don't understand. Birth certificates don't state what gender a person is...they state what sex you are... male or female.

Stop the world. I want to get off.

ThymeLord Sun 23-Jul-17 10:17:27

Is it a case of lobbying MPs? What can be done? I'll speak out wherever I can.

Floggingmolly Sun 23-Jul-17 10:18:44

This is fucking terrifying hmm

Mummymummyme Sun 23-Jul-17 10:19:59

I was okay with it until they mentioned potentially allowing so called 'non binary' people to assign their gender as X. Ridiculous.

Mummymummyme Sun 23-Jul-17 10:21:36

Sorry just re-read that it says sex and not gender. Absolutely mad, sex is primitive and biological. Identifying your sex as female won't stop you from getting prostate cancer. Are people not thinking of the medical implications here?

EmpressOfTheSpartacusOceans Sun 23-Jul-17 10:22:28

With reference to the "national survey of LGBT people" I would also like to point out that in this context LGBT is highly likely to mean just the T.

I'd be astonished if they actually care that a lot of lesbians think this is a terrible idea.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:23:45


The consultation is open to LGBT only.
Women who are not part of this group don't get a say.

Fuck. That. Shit

We need to find a way to get our voices heard. Anyone with ideas, please post

@MNHQ - will you support us now?

zinniazuri Sun 23-Jul-17 10:24:08

All official documents state 'M/F' for male or female.

A non-binary person is still male or female, not X.

A transwoman is still a male, a transman is still a female, so why do we need to change any birth documents?

MrsWooster Sun 23-Jul-17 10:25:33

I don't understand. Birth certificates don't state what gender a person is...they state what sex you are... male or female
Yep, sounds about right. Women do not have penises. Men do not have vaginas. There need to be places for transwomen and for transmen but women-only and indeed men-only spaces aren't them

AfunaMbatata Sun 23-Jul-17 10:25:44

If this goes through then I'm going to change mine. Might get a pay rise out of it smile ..

derxa Sun 23-Jul-17 10:26:33

That's women's sport up the creek then.

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:26:38

So.....what we can we do?

Email our mps? Petition? Peaceful protest?

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:29:21

In a years time no one will rescommend womens aid as a safe space for people who come here asking for support when they are abused and raped. Because womens aid will have to have people with penis' answering their calls etc.

Where will we go?

MadreTranquillitatis Sun 23-Jul-17 10:30:09

The consultation is open to LGBT only. Women who are not part of this group don't get a say. We need to find a way to get our voices heard. Anyone with ideas, please post

We will have to claim that we are transmen? Or come up with some nonbinary bullshit?

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 10:30:09

Me too @AfunaMbatata

In the meantime, MPs need to be nagged to death about the difference between gender and sex. That article is sheer gobbledygook because they're being used interchangeably there.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:30:25

@MNHQ - will you support us now?

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 10:31:04

And of course a birth certificate recording "gender" would be a nonsense too. As @formerbabe says, we've never had state records of gender.

jellyfrizz Sun 23-Jul-17 10:31:30

I agree Mummy. It is important to know someone's biological sex for health purposes but what reason is there to know what gender people identify as?

We should treat people equally regardless of their gender or how they present so why does it matter if someones presentation doesn't match their birth certificate?

Sex and gender are completely different things.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:31:47


"We will have to claim that we are transmen? Or come up with some nonbinary bullshit?"

GENIUS! I think I love you

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings Sun 23-Jul-17 10:33:21

"The consultation is open to LGBT only."
"Women who are not part of this group do not get a say"

How exactly is LGBTQIABCD membership going to be quantified in this?

PlayOnWurtz Sun 23-Jul-17 10:33:34

I fall firmly on the side of women on this issue. My MP has previously stated they fall on the side of the transagenda

MadreTranquillitatis Sun 23-Jul-17 10:35:34

I really think we need to get properly organised. Mumsnet might not be the right place for it, they seemed to pander to the trans bullies in the past (but I might be wrong)

I know there are a lot of feminist groups on facebook, but maybe we could start a new one specifically to fight this bullshit. we need a strategy, proper planning, possibly a huge campaign

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 10:36:51

DD says if it comes in, she's going to demand to be reregistered as "rabbit gender". (She's 16 for context). She might be onto something there. Either all delusions and nonsenses should be officially recognised or we should stick to recording biological sex and let everyone live their lives as eccentrically as they wish.

PovertyPain Sun 23-Jul-17 10:37:44

I have no faith that this won't be stopped, because those women that speak out will be called bigots, prevented from having their voices heard and receive death threats. This will frighten other women and prevent many of them from speaking out.

Our children are already being brainwashed with this bullshit and believe that our generation aren't 'moving with the times'. Children are a nice soft target for these people so by being permitted to spread these male to female, and visa versa, fantasies in school, they've already started this indoctrination. Unfortunately young females won't realise the risk this poses to them until it's too late and, as what happened when I was young (70s), they will be told they're over reacting. I'm genuinely really upset by the thought that our daughters are going to grow up in a society that puts females at the bottom of the list of those that need protection, AGAIN.

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 10:37:49

How exactly is LGBTQIABCD membership going to be quantified in this?

Self identification surely? wink

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:38:01

OK. Calling all lurking MPs and journalists: take note

I will not vote for ANY party that supports this regressive bullshit

Anyone started a petition yet? I think we need a Westminster one so that it can be debated. Then we need to lobby MPs and making very fucking clear that they will be out of a seat if they support this shit

PlayOnWurtz Sun 23-Jul-17 10:38:26

I think everyone identifying as non binary to skew the survey is a great idea!
It shows how far feminism has come that that men feel so threatened by us they need to do this.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings Sun 23-Jul-17 10:40:02

"The women's movement uk" is quite a 'sensible' fb group, though it's quite small at present.

It's not a radfem only group like a lot of others, but it is for females only afaik

(It's not a secret group, but if I'm not supposed to be passing on the name here, please report my post - I have no issues with my post being deleted)

alltouchedout Sun 23-Jul-17 10:40:28

You won't speak for all mumsnetters, many of us are on the opposite side to you in this argument. I will be very disappointed if MNHQ decide to rally to your cause.

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:41:13

Dh declared he is transpecies this morning and is now a badger.

Says he has no legal repsonibility for anything and will live in the woods, even if the council dont let people camp in the woods near us. Its tough they have to accept he identifys as a badger. As do his employers, me, the kids etc.

I am glad he is as furious about this as I am. And he sees the ridiculous-ness of it.

How is the small amount of progess women have made crumbling so fast?

gingerpusscat Sun 23-Jul-17 10:42:10

Well played, patriarchy, well played.

So now my XX chromosomes, vagina, vulva etc denote my status as oppressor of the XY with the cock and balls, who get to bully their way into defining the social and legal boundaries of my sex and gender.

Well, that's never happened before!

Is this what it means to live in the post-truth era?

PlayOnWurtz Sun 23-Jul-17 10:43:33

Can the Rachel dolzeal fiasco not be used to out advantage on this?

formerbabe Sun 23-Jul-17 10:43:36

So we need to decide if we like pink stuff and make up or football and cars...then we pick our gender... chromosomes and sexual/reproductive organs are irrelevant?

Dawnedlightly Sun 23-Jul-17 10:44:03

Can someone link to where it says the consultation is open to LBTQ only?
If it's true then we need to mobilise lesbians.

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:44:30

You won't speak for all mumsnetters, many of us are on the opposite side to you in this argument. I will be very disappointed if MNHQ decide to rally to your cause.

Genuinely please can you explain hpw you dont mind people with penis'

Access womens rape centres
Womens refugees
Womens safe spaces
Womens sports

If a transwoman does not want to use a male changing room because they feel unsafe getting changed near people who have penis'. Why should women have ti get changed near someone with a penis? IE a transwoman.

Why does a transwomans rights to have space away from people with penis', trump womens rights to want the same thing?

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 10:44:39

No but I think she speaks for a majority of MNers @alltouchedout

Remember the olympics policy threads? They weren't niche or evenly balanced . That was a howl of protest.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:44:49



FlaviaAlbia Sun 23-Jul-17 10:46:18

There's a small but steady stream of news reports of men being done for voyeurism using cameras etc. Can you imagine what opportunities this will offer to those who would previously have been arrested for going into women's changing rooms?

And prisons? At the minute some are objecting to male prisoners who change gender and demand to be moved suspecting they're playing the system. Will they just be moved now as soon as they assert they're a woman? Madness.

46% of women in prison report having suffered domestic violence.

Women serve prison sentences for minor offences; most women entering prison under sentence (84%) have committed a non-violent offence and theft offences accounted for nearly half (48%) of all custodial sentences given to women in 2016.
Most women entering prison serve short sentences. 70% of sentenced women entering prison in 2016 were serving six months or less.

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:46:26

beyond how do you get in that group?

TinklyLittleLaugh Sun 23-Jul-17 10:47:05

Perhaps we need to start invading men only spaces, so they get a taste of it themselves.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:47:30

Plus we need to highlight the primogeniture law, which says that women identifying as men as not entitled to claim titles, (male) inheritances or sit on the House of Lords

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings Sun 23-Jul-17 10:47:40

Ask to join, saiman, I think that's all there is to it?

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:49:12

There was no option to do that.

I am not great in fb though. Maybe its me grin

jellyfrizz Sun 23-Jul-17 10:49:49

alltouchedout why does it matter what gender someone identifies as? What purpose does knowing that serve? Will people be treated differently according to gender? Surely that's pretty backward?

Knowing biological sex matters for health purposes. Gender id not so much.

CaoNiMartacus Sun 23-Jul-17 10:50:11

One of the most offensive elements of this is that it's being rolled out to coincide with the anniversary of decriminalising homosexuality. The implication is that if you don't support it, you'll be on the wrong side of history.

As a lesbian, I don't believe that the T has any rightful place within LGB.

I will do what I can to fight this.

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:50:17

Found the was me shock

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings Sun 23-Jul-17 10:51:35


Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:51:58

All my gay collegues. Male and female believe the 'T' should be removed as well. Hopefully they wull all oppose it in the consulatation. Wonder how this consultation is happening.

SummerKelly Sun 23-Jul-17 10:52:20

I think either we support segregation by sex or we don't. If we think it's a good idea in general that penises are not allowed in women's changing rooms why is this? On what grounds would we make exceptions? I can't imagine my teenage DD feeling comfortable in a changing room on her own with someone who appears to be a man. Nor would I for that matter. Everything that women over the years have fought for as a result of male violence could just be lost in one piece of legislation. It's depressing.

DameDeDoubtance Sun 23-Jul-17 10:52:41

You cannot protect sex and gender. Sex is a protected status because men, as a class, treat women like shit.

This will end our right to name that problem.

There will be an end to the gender pay gap, but all top earners will have penises.

This act reduces being a woman to a sexist stereotype, a sexist stereotype that I have fought against my whole life.

MNHQ please stand up for women. I know it isn't easy but it is right. Standing up for women has always been hard, that's how we gained the right to vote.

Don't fudge this, pick a side.

LittleBooInABox Sun 23-Jul-17 10:52:51

This stupid stuff opens up the policy for abuse. Leave the system as it is. There is two sexes - male or female. I refuse to engage on this social justice warrior mentality.

Why are the rules being changed. I thought only America had these hair brained ideas!?! Wtf..

Inertia Sun 23-Jul-17 10:53:03

We need to go in to this with evidence of harm that has already been caused to women and girls. I'm sure someone must have begun compiling a list of convictions and cases so far - does anyone know of one?

YetAnotherSpartacus Sun 23-Jul-17 10:53:07

Still Spartacus.

PlayOnWurtz Sun 23-Jul-17 10:53:12

I don't know any gay person who wants the T there either. I know a few B people who do but the B people I know have never been in a same sex relationship so...

Saiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:54:28

Off for a spartacus addition to my name.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 10:54:29

Why would you support an ideology that calls lesbians bigots and vagina fetishists for not wanting to suck 'lady dick'?

Wallahibillahitallahi Sun 23-Jul-17 10:54:54

I am afraid to say, it is too late for protest. Everyone was too busy being right-on, liberal and cool

Now we need to think about ways to protect women WITHIN this pot of shit

Rumandraisin1 Sun 23-Jul-17 10:54:55

This is absolutely terrible for women. As a few examples, men with stronger male bodies will be able to compete in women's sport, even more male rapists will be getting transfers to women's prisons (this is already happening and an expert reporting to a parliamentary select committee said that pretty much all those asking to be transferred to women's prisons were violent and sex offenders - they don't need to have had any surgery for this is - these are 100% in tact males with penises), there has been at least one case so far of a 'transwoman' suing a rape crisis for not allowing 'her' to train as a rape counsellor and men gaining access to women's refuges - vulnerable women who have suffered at the hands of male violence/rape who aren't comfortable with this are the ones who have to leave.

We aren't talking here about legal protection for people who have had gender reassignment surgery - that already exists - we are talking about any man being able to just declare that they identify as female.

People hold up Danielle Muscato as an example but 'she' is definitely not alone. I have been to women only LGBT events attended by 'women' with beards and penises - this change is already happening in practice but this would solidify it into law.

Sorry....I only meant to write a short post saying I agree!

LakieLady Sun 23-Jul-17 10:55:14

I've just identified as male and find this is giving me a pain in my non-existent bollocks. Will doctors be required to consider gynae conditions if a patient who identifies as female comes into the surgery with abdo pain? Will they want to be called in for mammograms and cervical smears?

If we have clients who can't have female workers because of risk to staff, will we have to send females if the client starts identifying as female?

If it was April 1st, these proposals would have given me a good laugh. As it's not, it's bloody ridiculous.

user1498911589 Sun 23-Jul-17 10:55:26

Can somebody explain this simply for those bears like me of little brain?

formerbabe Sun 23-Jul-17 10:56:35

Everyone was too busy being right-on, liberal and cool

Absolutely this!

Calling someone a bigot is like a modern day witch hunt.

DameDeDoubtance Sun 23-Jul-17 10:57:31

alltouchedout please explain why my daughter must undress in front of biological males. Why she must compete in sport alongside biological males. Why she can be overlooked for a job as it has been given to a woman with a penis.

Please explain what makes a male, with a penis a woman, is it the dress or the lipstick?

Lastly, tell me what you believe a woman to be.

MadreTranquillitatis Sun 23-Jul-17 10:58:25

I don't believe that the T has any rightful place within LGB

I absolutely agree with this.

BuffyChiro Sun 23-Jul-17 10:58:52

I will also be really disappointed if MNHQ rallies to your cause. Thankfully, I think TERFs are v much the minority - despite being extremely vocal. This gender bill would be an amazing step forward for trans rights. You are indeed on the wrong side of history.

Also, why are you so obsessed with penises?

Wallahibillahitallahi Sun 23-Jul-17 10:58:58

inertia there are lists. Apparently we are bigots for compiling the lists. Examples are always dismissed as 'not all trans people' and believe me there are very very very many examples. Sexual predators go to extraordinary lengths to groom and molest girls and women. It really shouldn't be a shock that they are suprised to wear frocks and wigs to do so

See the Facebook page; This Never Happens

SpartacusSaiman Sun 23-Jul-17 10:59:33

The the term 'female penis' gives me the rage. There is nothing female about a penis.

YoureNotASausage Sun 23-Jul-17 11:00:28

I'm fine with it. I would like to see the removal of segregation by gender ultimately. There are just people. And people need to be protected from criminals and illegal activities, not from a group of people who simply identify as a different gender than they were born. I feel like I will have greater freedom as a woman if woman as a definition for me becomes broader and less restrictive. None of this changes a jot who we are for any of us, men, women or trans people, it just changes how we are 'allowed' to live. I know mumsnet feels differently to me.

BreakfastAtSquiffanys Sun 23-Jul-17 11:00:56

The world has officially gone mad.
I would side with the DH above and self identify as a badger but I'm worried about the cull

gingerpusscat Sun 23-Jul-17 11:01:11

One thing I simply cannot understand: why do those born male but who don't identify as male simply seek to broaden the definition of 'male.'? I see the whole thing as completely reactionary. Why is the definition of 'woman' to be expanded to include the bepenised, rather than the narrowness of 'man' expanded and challenged to embrace those with penises who feel they don't fit in?

CastIronCookware Sun 23-Jul-17 11:01:12

I agree with @Wallahibillahitallahi - it's too late for protest now. The battle for trans rights to supersede women's rights has been "won", because very few women showed up to defend themselves, and the law is being updated to reflect society.

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 11:01:58

Also, why are you so obsessed with penises?


You've not been paying attention, have you?

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings Sun 23-Jul-17 11:02:17

I don't think mnhq will support this either way - they won't take feminism's "side", but they won't censor us either.

AssignedMentalAtBirth Sun 23-Jul-17 11:03:52

Also, why are you so obsessed with penises?

I assume you have one Buffy

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog Sun 23-Jul-17 11:04:14

I fully support the right of people to dress how they like, call themselves what they like, and 99% of the time do whatever job they like or live where-ever they like without harrassment because they have a penis and like wearing a dress, or a vagina and like wearing a chest binder.

But 1% of the time -women's prisons, women's spaces where they are naked and vulnerable, women's shelters and rape crisis centres - people with penises should not be in these spaces or taking jobs in those places.

And people with penises should never play women's sport. Because it is not and can never be fair or safe. This individual is playing a contact sport against women, and the bloody article is all fawning about how they just want to play without discrimination - how about fairness towards the women on the opposing team who're going to be tackled - Simona is a whole head taller than their team mates.

isupposeitsverynice Sun 23-Jul-17 11:04:25

I'll drop the penis obsession when men stop using them as a weapon against women.

LadyinCement Sun 23-Jul-17 11:04:26

Ian Huntley (Soham murders) is apparently now "identifying" as a woman and requesting a transfer to a women's prison...

It's not the genuine male to women sex change individuals I am concerned about. I know one (and see a few others about) and she is a completely upstanding person. It is those who will use this law to gain access to currently prohibited areas. Would you ever go in a public lavatory again if a man could quite legitimately walk in and know that you would be in the wrong if you challenged him - or even looked at him in a scared or outraged manner?

FlaviaAlbia Sun 23-Jul-17 11:05:08


At the minute, changing your legal gender is possible, but there are steps you have to follow. Such as living as your intended gender for 2 years and being diagnosed with gender dismorphia.

This proposed change would mean that someone could make a statement saying they're now a woman and legally, they would be. So they can go into women's changing rooms, prisons, sports, hosptial wards, refuges and women would not be able to object because legally they'd be the same.

Accurate statistics are invaluable, but men commit more violent crimes than women so we'll see stats change, violent crime and sex crime among women rise.

Medical stats will be problematic, how can you accurately describe the occurrence of sex related illness such as ovarian cancer if you're not sure that the group in question all has ovaries?

I don't see how this will help people with gender dismorphia when it'll just be a delight to the kind of men who will abuse it.

formerbabe Sun 23-Jul-17 11:05:38

I would like to see the removal of segregation by gender ultimately

Gender or sex?
Do you understand the difference?

PlymouthMaid1 Sun 23-Jul-17 11:06:04

This is terrible. So few people even know it is happening. The people I have mentioned this topic to probably think I am crazy as they are so unaware. I dont know what we can do to protect womens rights as nobody is listening.

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog Sun 23-Jul-17 11:07:36

"Why are you so obsessed with penises?"

Because penises are used to commit rape. Can you explain to me how it is safe to put a convicted rapist with a penis into a women's prison just because the owner of said penis says they are a woman?

fakenamefornow Sun 23-Jul-17 11:08:07

What will this 'self identification' actually entail? Signing a form? Going to a registrar and making a declaration? If that's all it involves, if this law goes through I might register as male. The only thing is, it won't actually give me any advantage. The 18% pay rise will only be for actual XY men with penises, any male only spaces would just be dangerous for me to enter. Can anyone think of any apart from showing how ridiculous this would be?

Men, on the other hand self identifying as female, could then complete at championship level against actual females. Sex offenders (vast majority XY) will then have free access to spaces with undressed women and girls.

Besides, if I'm honest, I'm not overly worried about men accessing female spaces, it's the utter madness of this. Sex is a biological fact, why are we ignoring that just so we can keep an offensive stereotype?

Rumandraisin1 Sun 23-Jul-17 11:09:48

You're not a a sausage - so you want to see the abolition of sex segregation for sport? Do you understand the physical differences between men and women's bodies?

Wallahibillahitallahi Sun 23-Jul-17 11:11:20

I'm not OBSESSED with penises. 95% of violent crimes are carried out by penis-owners. 99% of sexual assaults against vagina owners are carried out by penis owners. I want to keep spaces free of penises where me and my vagina owning offspring can feel safe whilst changing or whatever. I would like my vagina owning teenage daughter to be able to change with other teenagers who have the same bodies. I would like her to have space to deal with her periods and sanitary towels with people who understand. I would like the practice of FGM to be stopped so that my nieces do not have to experience the same as my MIL and SOLd and I would like them to have spaces free of people with penises to discuss that

And I would like vagina owners to have a fair chance at competitive sports

Jammydodger81 Sun 23-Jul-17 11:13:38

I shed a tear when I saw this story this morning. I had an idea it was coming but hoped it wouldn't.

How can they do this to us? We need to do something.

jellyfrizz Sun 23-Jul-17 11:14:27

This gender bill would be an amazing step forward for trans rights.

How so? It shouldn't make a difference how someone identifies or presents and whether or not that matches society's ideas of whether that matches the s x on their birth cert.

Surely to be properly trans inclusive we should be looking at accepting everyone as they are rather than encouraging people to deny their past and biology by changing their birth certs?

I can't see how this is a win for trans rights.

SerfTerf Sun 23-Jul-17 11:14:31

The only thing is, it won't actually give me any advantage.

No, but it could create administrative chaos. I'm absolutely serious about doing so in the event this passes.

Wallahibillahitallahi Sun 23-Jul-17 11:15:44

There has never been segregation by gender. Segregation has always been based on sex for reasons of dignity, privacy, safety and fairness

Give me one good reason for segregation based on gender

toomuchtooold Sun 23-Jul-17 11:16:06

I'm with you guys. I have transgender friends, I get that things are hard for them, but I don't think any of them would want a law whose main effect is going to be to tear down every legal protection of women as an oppressed group. It is about penises, and it's about uteruses - doesn't fucking matter what body I think I should have been born in, I was born in one with a uterus - and every time it looked like it might work (employment rights, equal pay) or not work (shitty-ass miscarriage care and fertility treatment) or work when I didn't want it to (abortion, contraception) I found out what a small fraction of a full human being our society counts me as.

VestalVirgin Sun 23-Jul-17 11:18:27

Plus we need to highlight the primogeniture law, which says that women identifying as men as not entitled to claim titles, (male) inheritances or sit on the House of Lords

We need to oppose that exception to self-identification and genderism. Very loudly and angrily. If the males see their privilege threatened, they may finally decide to oppose that shit. And as males hold power, we might yet be able to prevent the idiocy.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings Sun 23-Jul-17 11:18:36

YoureNotASausage.... what if I identify as a sausage, eh?
(Sorry, couldn't resist blush )

ForalltheSaints Sun 23-Jul-17 11:18:40

I am a man (in the interests of transparency in this debate), biologically. I have never had the wish to be, or identify as a woman.

I agree the process should be made easier, but not in the way proposed. If you have had the medical procedures for gender reassignment, you should not have to undergo any further medical examination. However, in places such as women's prisons and others where women are naked for routine matters such as showering, then those who still have male genitalia should not be there.

I do not want women to be put off exercise, sport, or have even more body issues than many have in this country, because of the fear that one of the people in certain spaces is a man pretending to be a woman to perve.

andintothefire Sun 23-Jul-17 11:19:54

How can there be any meaningful statistics on issues that are STILL of vital importance to women (e.g. gender pay gap, women in science / tech, women on boards or reaching higher levels of the judiciary, sexual assault) if people born and socialised as a man are included in those statistics just because they now self-identify as a woman?

I don't understand how politicians aren't concerned about this issue. Do they think the numbers will be so small as to be statistically insignificant? The problem is that in many areas they really won't be.

It is such a sad, worrying situation where there is a very difficult line to tread between supporting people who identify as a particular gender and ensuring that we continue to recognise the many ways in which women are mistreated because of their gender / experience being socialised as a particular gender all their lives.

IdentifiesAsASquirrel Sun 23-Jul-17 11:22:10

Fancied a change

BahHumbygge Sun 23-Jul-17 11:22:45

Indeed... what purpose does it serve to know what someone's gender is? why do people need treated differently according to gender?

...they don't, unless you're a sexist misogynist who believes in the regressive concept of inferior lady brains.

Biological sex on the other hand is vitally important... for medical care, physiological differences in sporting potential, reproduction of the species, safety from forced sexual encounters and harassment, safety from physical violence and seeking refuge from it. All these are based on BIOLOGICAL SEX, not CULTURAL GENDER.

The idea that a predatory male can just decree by personal fiat he is now female and can now access any female only space is simply horrifying. The unintended consequences are unthinkable... but have already been happening. Voyeurism in gender neutral showers at U of Toronto, Christopher Hambrook etc. But our voices of alarm are never listened to as mere women.

Transwomen need to widen the bandwidth of maleness, not invade female space - both at a conceptual and physical level. The idea that men who display softer gentler 'frillier' natures and feminine presentation styles cannot be men because it's not becoming, is right out of the Alpha male macho misogynous rule book. Regressive politics dressed up at progressivism.

Lurkedforever1 Sun 23-Jul-17 11:23:05

If they are limiting opinion to LGBT, can't those of us who aren't either of the first 3 simply identify as the last to get our opinions heard?

Especially if we could organise ourselves so that we all bombarded services on the same day with our newly discovered gender feelings.

However it's not as though there is a national register for lesbian and bi women so that's an option too for anyone who doesn't fancy an en masse stampede to demand support with our new identities as transmen.

VestalVirgin Sun 23-Jul-17 11:23:24

Surely to be properly trans inclusive we should be looking at accepting everyone as they are rather than encouraging people to deny their past and biology by changing their birth certs?

Depends on what you mean by trans inclusive. People with body dysphoria have been able to get surgery for years and years. They have everything they need to be happy.

This new trans movement is all about males getting to invade women's spaces, and women getting to identify as exceptional and better than us lowly "cis" women by declaring themselves nonbinary or transmen.
And THAT they could not do in a world without social gender roles. They would just be normal people of the female or male sex. But they want to be special.

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