to ask the MN hive mind what might make Islamist attacks less common?(249 Posts)
There are thousands of intelligent people on Mumsnet. MI5 don't recruit here for nothing. I need your help.
I know that if there were easy answers, they'd have been come up with already.
1) I need to know more about the Saudi Arabia connection. Why do we keep selling them arms? Is there a direct connection between our political relationship with that regime, and the Islamists running round killing random people? Would it make any difference if we extracted ourselves from being friendly with the Saudis? (I've picked up that the Saudi regime are "baddies" but am ready to be robustly corrected).
2) Is there anything we can do in terms of licensing mosques, imams, imam training, so that Islamists just can't come and preach/ teach here? Are the Islamists already the equivalent of some dodgy heretical vaguely-related-to-Christian sect that would be shut down pronto if the mainstream Muslims had the power to do so (I guess, like a really theologically-out-there CofE vicar could be defrocked)?
3) Is there anything that can be done about what happens when people voice concerns to the police (like with the Manchester loser), that will impede those on their way to Islamism without being a civil liberties shit storm? Like, if someone's mosque AND their family AND their employers AND their friends, or some combination of those different groups, have all expressed concerns, then it's time for some serious brainwashing until they become buddhists (I'm joking. I have no idea what should be done. That's why I've asked AIBU for help).
(MN regular, penis beaker, korean granny, blah blah, name changed because I don't normally do politics on here and would rather keep it separate from my normal bleatings)
We (the West) really need to stop arming and generally supporting the Israelis too...
We conduct ourselves very poorly on the world stage IMO. Had we actually listened to osama bin laden and met some of al quaidas actually pretty reasonable political demands, we might have avoided the current situation with Isis who are a far less reasonable enemy, much more ideological and less political.
You can't license mosques - freedom of expression and freedom to practice ones religion are fundamental human rights.
Cracking down on mosques and tech companies is coming at this from entirely the wrong end of the problem.
We need to stop behaving in a manner that causes this resentment towards the West, rather than managing the resentment itself once it's here iyswim?
We need to learn considerably more about the radicalisation process, so that ways to identify and counter it can be identified.
And yes, whatever teachers say about Prevent, it needs to be happening in schools (as safeguarding as much as anything else).
We could start be reinstating the 10000 police officers which TM has got rid of.
The youngsters that get embroiled and radicalised are probably feeling unwanted, disenfranchised with the society they live in; then they find people who tell them how great and important they are, how they have been so badly treated. So what should we be doing? Giving kids a future to look forward to? Ensuring that all people feel equally valued and trusted?
End all religious schools and send children to secular schools where they will mix with children of other backgrounds. Teach them about all religions. No opting out.
WideHorizon Does taking your holidays in Israel count as supporting them? That's a matter of personal choice, isn't it?
@widehorizon thank you for answering!
Aren't there two directions here - domestic and foreign?
I get it that we (the West) have got our foreign policy completely wrong in the last 20 years or however long, and that we went wading into the Middle East when we REALLY didn't understand what we were wading into or how counterproductive it would be. What would you advocate as a change of direction now? (I have no idea, myself, the whole thing is beyond me).
But domestically - we have home grown Islamists. So there has to be something in our actions at home that shifts, and makes it less possible/likely for that to come about. Is it about inculcating Western values? I know we can't licence mosques - like I said, I have NO IDEA what the answers are. I'm hoping people here can help me think out some possibilities :D
No I'm not Theresa, @WellErr. I reckon she's probably got enough on her plate this week without faffing around on Mumsnet...
Yes, it is a matter of conscience, but I don't go anymore for political reasons (did a couple of kibbutz in my youth).
By 'supporting' I'm rather more meaning our collective 'looking the other way' while Jewish settlers encroach onto Palestinian land. We could at least enforce existing international law on this point, couldn't we?
One very small step- both the IRA and jihadists have used hired vans to kill and injure, or carry bombs/weapons. Surely a period of notice for hiring vehicles during which time checks can be made would be a start- and more secure locks?
End all faith schools.
All religions to behave in a way that meets the laws of the country, ie gay man and women are allowed to be priests etc
Talk about male violence.
There was also resentment to the West when we didn't intervene internationally - attacks were then blamed on us allowing the killing of Muslims in Bosnia. The foreign policy argument is a nice soundbite but so simplistically applied that it's rendered almost meaningless.
Saudi is also a red herring - we've been in bed with them since before the Great Arab Revolt (although Saudi as a nation hadn't been created by then). There is an issue with Wahabi funding etc for mosques in their own image, but in and of itself, Wahabi Islam isn't necessarily violent. The biggest influence the UK (despite the fact the chattering classes have finally woken up to Saudi) is Deobandi Islam. It's also a salafiyya movement, and not inherently violent, however, like Wahabiyya, it's been associated with terrorism - eg the Taleban and TTP.
The dominant influence in the UK is Deobandism: firstly as it's from the subcontinent, where the majority of British Muslims are from. Secondly, when the government needed the equivalent of the Chief Rabbi and the Board of Deputies for Muslims, so created the Muslim Council of Britain, it privileged Deobandism through this move, ensuring it continued to dominate.
The majority of iffy preachers have come from this tradition, not Wahabiyya, in the UK. The majority, too, of questionable faith schools are from the Deobandi tradition. Finally, the majority of 2nd generation British Muslims turning to violence also grew up in this tradition, though most of them have also dropped religion at some stage before their salafi resurgence. Converts are not so straightforward.
@WinnieTheW0rm what is Prevent?
@midgebabe yes, I agree
@Andrewofgg really end all religious schools? Aren't we allowed to say that this country has had a Christian heritage for 1400 years or so, and Christianity is the established religion, and therefore it's reasonable to keep Christianity as part of the value set of the state? That feels a bit like appeasement to me (I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just uncomfortable at the idea)
Can't we ban the extreme version of Islam that believe in this violent Jihad? We could also ban any money going into Mosques from abroad. And possibly start vetting and refusing entry to any Imams with extreme beliefs. Also expand the prevent program, possibly tag and track with home curfews for everyone on a watch list.
Reverse the increase in faith schools, championed by Blair and now continued by the Tories under the Free School policy.
By their very nature they increase population segregation, and Free Schools are custom-built for extremist of all kinds (there have been problems with creationist Christian schools already).
And it's all completely unnecessary. Some problems we can't escape from, but this is a manufactured disaster. It could be reversed at the stroke of a pen. It's purely education ideology that is creating this situation.
The only (ok, main) reason islamists exist, either home grown or overseas is because of the west's conduct.
If we changed our approach, I think the world would be safer. We can't really do that now though, as that would be seen as caving in to terririst demands.
I just wish we hadn't dug our heels in to start with tbh.
...and yes, I agree all schools should be wholly secular.
we need to have enough police officers to work with these communities and identify people vulnerable to radicalisation.
Unfortunately the government thinks we can't afford it.
Stop interfering in the Middle East. Stop cozying up to barbaric regimes like Saudia Arabia to secure arms deals. (Yes that's you Teresa may)
Stop trying to justify the actions of Israel, when they bomb innocent men women and children in Palestine.
Stop tripping around after .Trump like an obedient little lap dog. You're embarrassing yourself and the people of this country.
A good start I think.
@forallthesaints yes, that's a good idea
@birdsdestiny that's really interesting - you're saying that the secular values of our country trump any religious beliefs, which are an optional add-on, but only in line with those secular values. It wouldn't be realistic to do that, though, would it?
@Hefzi thank you thank you - this is what I need to be learning about.
I'm on my phone so can't do links, but there's a nice Olivier Roy article about radicalisation - he essentially concludes it's not radicalisation of Islam that's going on, but Islamification of radicalisation.
He explains that these are often typical disaffected youth - drugs, drink, partying, school drop outs- who then get "" born again " as it were, and turn to jihadi teaching, rather than, say, an escalation of criminal behaviour. If no one has posted it before tomorrow, I'll link from work - I don't always agree with him, but he's one of the leading scholars on Islamism in Europe, and it's an excellent article.
Pragmatically though you could view Saudi as one if the only stable regimes in the ME.
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