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KH thread 2

(52 Posts)
PlinkyTheFairyWitch Thu 25-May-17 11:16:34

For continuing the discussion.

Orlantina Thu 25-May-17 11:20:16

Thanks

ISIS didn't arise out of a vacuum. Islam has been part of the UK for many years.

Why do people think there has been a rise in terrorist acts?

derxa Thu 25-May-17 11:22:49

Saudi Arabia

Lweji Thu 25-May-17 11:24:57

Just place marking.

Interesting to read and should be working.

Orlantina Thu 25-May-17 11:25:42

Saudi Arabia

The same Saudi we sell weapons to. And Trump has as well.

It seems to stem back to 1991 and the invasion of Kuwait. Obviously there's a lot more before that - but was that a factor?

I also think the rise of the internet has made it easier. We are just all more connected.

Orlantina Thu 25-May-17 11:31:52

Unbelievable the lack of empathy for the ones who lost their lives

That was from the previous thread. That is an awful comment. It was a horrendous attack.

It should not be used to make things worse. Our reaction should not make things worse.

Justanotherlurker Thu 25-May-17 11:35:02

Why do people think there has been a rise in terrorist acts?

As has been said and it seems to be getting missed quite a lot from both sides, its a multitude of factors going back since WW1 and before, western foreign policy has had an influence but to say that is all it is, is also naive.

The solution would not solve itself if we stopped selling arms to Saudi (sweden just took an order for some new Jets FWIW) or we just backed away and left them alone

What is your solution?

lessworriedaboutthecat Thu 25-May-17 11:37:23

Plinky I know you didn't . I was just joking and to a degree acknowledging my own flaws.

Basically what it think is going on in the world at the moment can be summed up in Adam Curtis's excellent Bitter lake. I'm sure you've all seen it but if not then I recommend you do.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU2moizkfGk

SapphireStrange Thu 25-May-17 11:37:31

Was lurking on old thread; placemarking here. Thanks for the new one.

Orlantina Thu 25-May-17 11:38:00

What is your solution

I don't know what the solution is but I know what the solution isn't.

lessworriedaboutthecat Thu 25-May-17 11:39:47

Also on BBC Iplayer with better sound

CheeseQueen Thu 25-May-17 11:44:01

What is your solution?

I don't know how to solve it, either. I do know Katie Hopkins tweet was downright dangerous territory though and calling for a final solution was chilling.

BertrandRussell Thu 25-May-17 11:44:50

I wonder whether it's worth making a plea here. Someone posted on the other thread-

"Killing kids at a pop concert is just plain wrong.

The people who did it are bad.

Within those two statements lies a world of history, politics and argument, but none of it challenges those truths"

Can we please agree that everyone posting on here agrees with that?

And wanting to talk about the world of history and politics and take part in the argument does not lessen our sympathy and empathy for the victims and their families or diminish our rage at the perpetrator? Because I for one find the constant suggestion that because I am taking part in this thread I must not care about dead children simultaneously upsetting and rage inducing.

CheeseQueen Thu 25-May-17 11:49:08

*Im leaving this thread, im amazed at the lack of outrage from some posters. They can think of loads of resons why we shouldnt do this that or the other but cant suggest one single thing we should do in response.
Unbelievable the lack of empathy for the ones who lost their lives and rather than rage against the bastards who are doing these kin d of attacks again and again they would rather bleat on about how awful it would be to come down hard on known terrorist suspects.. PATHETIC*

Terrorists are murdering scumbags who deserve to be come down hard. Those poor, poor families, I can't begin to imagine what they're going through sad
How do you DO that, though? By terrorist suspects, do you mean people who are thought to have extreme tendencies?
As on who actually haven't done anything but may do? As that's verging on Thought Police and where does that stop?
Somebody having extreme right wing views such as KH would fall under the same category by this definition.
Get them/her locked up/cracked down on as well then.

LadyinCement Thu 25-May-17 11:59:34

The problem is that this attack has crossed a line. Actually targeting children and teens is not merely nauseating but indicates a level of fanaticism and hate that is just incomprehensible.

Trailing behind terrorists hoping to catch them in the act hasn't worked. Their sophistication of methods and the difficulty of infiltrating their networks makes foiling every terrorism attempt virtually impossible.

There obviously is no easy solution, or we wouldn't be in this position now. But as so many have said, to do nothing, or at least nothing more , is increasingly endangering the public.

lessworriedaboutthecat Thu 25-May-17 12:02:48

I think the west essentially acted morally over the invasion of Kuwait. Saddam's invasion of Kuwait was condemned pretty much universally. The only people who were upset about it were people like Osama Bin Laden who were angry about Christian soldiers on Saudi soil which lead to 9-11. 9-11 lead to America blundering about like a blind stupid giant invading Iraq despite Saddam having absolutely nothing to do with it with the help of Tony Blair.

The invasion of Iraq then lead to Iran and Saudi Arabia fighting a proxy war over control of the country. At the same time the US decided the Arab world would be much better if those pesky dictators were removed and replaced with democratic capitalism despite the fact that countries in the region had no real history of democracy. In fact those dictators often though not always supported by the west had destroyed all forms of democratic opposition years before leaving nihilistic Islamists as the only form of opposition.

This is why the Arab spring resulted in butchery and mayhem for example Syria, or the eventual return of the status quo in Egypt. This in turn lead to the migrant crisis. A crisis which Europe was particularly vulnerable to due to the horrors of the second world war and a sort of self hating liberalism where any German (this is not confined to Germany and can be seen all across the west) who might object to an influx of more than a million young Arab men is essentially a Nazi. Which is how we got to where we are today.

I could right more on the subject and in greater detail however I do have work to do.

CrazyExIngenue Thu 25-May-17 12:03:55

Did the old thread finally get out of the stupid halal meat discussion? If so I'm back on for this one.

Trailing behind terrorists hoping to catch them in the act hasn't worked. Their sophistication of methods and the difficulty of infiltrating their networks makes foiling every terrorism attempt virtually impossible.

But it has worked. Lots of potential Manchesters have been stopped and people arrested around the world. Sadly, sometimes things slip through the cracks, but that doesn't mean the tactics aren't working.

There is no easy solution to this, but it has to be made clear that hate speech, from either side, is not acceptable as that only adds fuel to the fire.

nauticant Thu 25-May-17 12:15:08

But it has worked.

True but people are frightened and they've decided that absolute safety is the only thing that is acceptable. The problem is that "absolute safety" comes at a horrendous cost in which one group end up very safe but living in fear and the rest get marched to the camps.

Starburst3000 Thu 25-May-17 12:25:01

I'm frightened, more so then 7/7 & Westminster (I'm in London) because as Lady has pointed out it seems to be deliberately aimed at children. I'm worried that with all the coverage/reaction that more children will be targeted. Pretty much all parents will do anything to protect their children.

zeezeek Thu 25-May-17 12:40:52

It is possible to have empathy and sympathy for people who have been involved in terror attacks, but still want to explore some of the difficult conversations that we need to have in this country.
We do need to ask ourselves why people are vulnerable to radicalisation. I don't have all the answers, but I am willing to bet that the gradual normalisation of far right views that only seek to divide communities so that we only see the differences and not the similarities.

BertrandRussell Thu 25-May-17 13:00:31

"Trailing behind terrorists hoping to catch them in the act hasn't worked."

Well, we don't actually know this, do we? We don't know how many attacks have been prevented. Watching the News after this last atrocity, there did seem to be a feeling of an M15 cock-up- which the very quick further arrests seems to confirm.......

Justanotherlurker Thu 25-May-17 13:06:52

Watching the News after this last atrocity, there did seem to be a feeling of an M15 cock-up- which the very quick further arrests seems to confirm.......

Or it could be that they now have enough to bring people in who where already on the list?

CrazyExIngenue Thu 25-May-17 13:09:15

Watching the News after this last atrocity, there did seem to be a feeling of an M15 cock-up- which the very quick further arrests seems to confirm.......

But it's so hard to say that. Look at the unibomber in the US and Timothy McVeigh. Sometimes it is easy to fly under the radar.

Especially given that pictures of the bomber make him look about 16 himself.

BertrandRussell Thu 25-May-17 13:13:47

Yes, I agree. And I am usually very anti second guessing the police or the security services. But it was interesting how quickly they knew who he was under the circumstances.

Edsheeranalbumparty Thu 25-May-17 13:56:48

I still actually can't believe KH tweeted 'we need a final solution'.

Surely you can be arrested for that?

And yes, you can be absolutely appalled by what happened on Monday night and simultaneously want KH to no longer be able to spout her shite.

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