to think kenlivingstone is factually wrong when he said hitler supported zionism

[bluegreenyellow]

as he killed millions of the in gas chambers ect

[user1490828037]

The first few chapters of 'Mein Kampf' do support Livingstone's contention. The fact that Hitler was a complete and utter shit doesn't rewrite history.

[blackteasplease]

Does it matter if he did at one point, though? What difference does it make to sorting out the issues now facing Israelis and Palestinians?

[blackteasplease]

I mean if Hitler did support zionism. I know KL said what he said.

[brasty]

Hitler supported initially all the Jewish people being deported out of Germany, he later decided to just kill them. This is not the same as supporting a Jewish right to self determination.

[brasty]

And Ken Livingston has a history of anti semitism

[bluegreenyellow]

but zionism was and is a mvementof national he right of self-determination. It originated as a national liberation movemen.this isabsolutely not the same as the forcable removal of jews to palistine without any rights are absolutely not the same the nazis hated jews and statrted by forcibly removing them then killing them so its not me thats rewriting history

[cvbn]

No, Livingstone is factually wrong.

However, AIBU is definitely NOT the place to discuss this.

AIBU exists for discussing matters of opinion, not fact.

Facts cannot be 'unreasonable. They just are.

[samG76]

Thanks, cvbn. If Ken were some German and Hebrew speaking history professor, who had researched back copies of the German Jewish and Zionist press in the Berlin archives, then at least he would be speaking from a position of some authority. But he's just looked at some conspiracy website, which is why it's a load of bks

[Jux]

Read this: www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_weber.html
I'd love to read a critique of it, too, if there is one.

[Pigface1]

No, you are not being U. KL's comments were absolutely factually incorrect, for the precise reason you point out in your second post (Zionism is support for the creation and maintenance of a Jewish state to which Jews may move IF THEY CHOOSE - it is NOT support for the mass deportation of Jews against their will).

[BarbarianMum]

He is wrong. Forced deportation is not the same thing as Zionism. And maybe we should discuss it here because the population as a whole should know this.

Besides which, even if Hitler had at one point supported Zionism, what's that got to do with anything? It adds nothing to the arguments around it today one way or another.

[bialystockandbloom]

What brasty said. Before the Final Solution Hitler thought of deporting thousands of Jews from Germany (and France) as a way of ethnic cleansing, not because he supported the creation of the state of Israel. He also, btw, had an idea of shipping Jews out to (French-owned) Madagascar too.

It is despicable that Ken Livingstone has not been expelled from the Labour Party.

[samG76]

Jux - I'm assuming you are not aware that the IHR is a holocaust denying website. The authors don't believe the Holocaust happened at all, though many of them wish it had. I'd take what they say with a lot of salt...

[bialystockandbloom]

The IHR website is barely veiled antisemitism all over, with the author of that article clearly obsessed about "jewish power". Currently lauding a Ukrainian 'war hero' on its home page for saying that "jews wield excessive power". An ocean-full of salt needed for the bile on that site.

[Jux]

samG76, no I wasn't aware so thank you for telling me -I hadn't even looked at what/who the actual site was, just read the article which someone sent me.

I have now also read David Baddiel's FB speech, and also this: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/adolf-hitler-zionism-zionist-nazis-haavara-agreement-ken-livingstone-labour-antisemitism-row-a7009981.html and am thoroughly ashamed that I just burst in here and spouted.

I apologise wholeheartedly. I was offensive and ignorant. I'm sorry.

I need to think before I speak and shall be more careful in the future. I can't say I understand hte whole situation as I don't; but I do see that this is a time when I should have just read and considered.

[samG76]

Jux - apology accepted (by me anyway). This demonstrates well the problem, which is that this area of bashing Jews/Zionists is one where people like Ken who consider themselves anti-racists will read, digest and even spread far-right and anti-semitic materials that in other cases they would avoid like the plague. You may have seen that the BNP gave Ken its wholehearted endorsement.

[Jux]

Thank you samG76.

[bialystockandbloom]

Good for you Jux

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

Yes he is wrong

And he knows it but decided to make this comment to a Jewish women when it was totally irrelevant she to the discussion they were having

Thankfully Vanessa Feltz is far more intelligent than him and didn't rise to his insult

He should have been kicked out of the Labour Party and I feel ashamed he hasn't been and not in the slightest bit surprised Ken Loach is supporting him

[hackmum]

I'm quite baffled as to why Livingstone bangs on about this. What does it matter whether Hitler supported Zionism or not? It's like those people who say "Well, Hitler was a vegetarian!" as if this is somehow the clinching argument against vegetarianism. What Hitler thought, or claimed to think, about anything is irrelevant, given that he authored the biggest genocide in history. If it suddenly turned out that Hitler believed in equal pay for women, it wouldn't make equal pay for women a bad idea.

[user1490828037]

"...Vanessa Feltz is far more intelligent than him"

What an argument, what a facile comparison. Vanessa Feltz is most certainly not intelligent.

[scaryclown]

I'm sorry, but whenever anyone says 'Zionism' I am prevented from understanding it, because I get an instant mental picture of Boney M singing 'By the rivers of Babylon' in fluffy white suits.

It makes no difference that the white suits are from 'Mary's Boy Child'. Its just how my brain works.

[HostaFireAndIce]

Vanessa Feltz is most certainly not intelligent

Apparently, she went to Cambridge. Who knew? But anyway, the pp's comment was that she was far more intelligent than Ken Livingstone, which I don't think would be difficult.

[Pallisers]

I'm quite baffled as to why Livingstone bangs on about this. What does it matter whether Hitler supported Zionism or not? It's like those people who say "Well, Hitler was a vegetarian!" as if this is somehow the clinching argument against vegetarianism. What Hitler thought, or claimed to think, about anything is irrelevant, given that he authored the biggest genocide in history. If it suddenly turned out that Hitler believed in equal pay for women, it wouldn't make equal pay for women a bad idea.

Thank you hackmum for such a rational post.

[lizzieoak]

Here here hackmum!! I actually wonder if Livingstone is going a bit senile. He seems oblivious to what the problem is and just smiles about it. It's quite peculiar. The Labour Party on the other hand clearly has no excuse.