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To think that if working full time still equal grinding humiliating poverty then crime is not only to be expected, it is to be welcomed as a sensible career choice.

(240 Posts)
scaryclown Fri 31-Mar-17 02:53:29

I.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all, then it is your duty to take things from the system..

scaryclown Fri 31-Mar-17 02:56:13

Or to put it another way, if work meant inclusion in society, ability to build a life and plan, and to have a family, then people wouldn't go in for criminal careers so often...?

Greatwhiteworld Fri 31-Mar-17 03:21:27

Ok so from the US that's when you make and sell moonshine

soisolated Fri 31-Mar-17 05:09:04

Then system is broken and needs removing

coconuttella Fri 31-Mar-17 07:00:47

Are implying that this is the position of many people in this country?

If so YABU.... yes, of course there are people in this country that struggle with poverty, but if you are able to work full-time, life may be tough financially but to call it 'grinding, humiliating poverty' that justifies a life of crime is insulting to billions of poorer people in the world today and throughout history. You live in a country that provide a (rising) minimum wage, free healthcare, free primary/secondary education, the rule of law, a democratic and inclusive civil society, peaceful co-existence with our neighbouring countries, financial support for housing (I.e. Housing benefit) etc, etc.. Yes, things may not be as good as it could or should be, and there will doubtless be financial struggles, but if you work full-time in this country, you really can't think you're hard done by from a historical or global perspective.

If every person as poor or poorer than a full-time minimum wage UK worker around the world (i.e. 95%+ of the population) took this view (I.e. I'm poor so I might as well be a criminal) the world would descend into lawless anarchy, and things would be far, far worse for everyone.

Lostwithinthehills Fri 31-Mar-17 07:04:12

Coconutella has explained my thoughts much better than I could.

StillDrivingMeBonkers Fri 31-Mar-17 07:05:02

You sound like that Labour MP who said people with nice cars deserve to have them stolen as it makes poor people jealous hmm

Polyanthus Fri 31-Mar-17 07:18:45

What coconutella said (better than I could)

DesignedForLife Fri 31-Mar-17 07:20:23

What coconut said

RainbowsAndUnicorn Fri 31-Mar-17 07:23:10

YABVU, poverty in this country is relative not absolute.

How far a full time salary stretches is down to the person, some are sensible whilst some what it all even though they can't afford the choices they make.

corythatwas Fri 31-Mar-17 07:42:09

The people most likely to suffer from your new criminal career are other people living in grinding poverty.

scaryclown Fri 31-Mar-17 07:53:56

There are people working nearly full time who are living off handout bread and beans for the week before payday, when they only have one life, in a system where others working less hard can afford cars, holidays partners, etc and are applying for over 200jobs a week being good and polite and getting nowhere. Being polite and good means everything​ is taken from you, so why not ditch the polite and good behaviour that benefits others and instead take what you can however you can?

coconuttella Fri 31-Mar-17 07:55:25

i.e. when conforming perfectly to the system gets you nothing at all

You sound like a spoilt teenager... I take it that despite your full-time job you're starving, on the street, desperately ill with no opportunity to receive healthcare, and have been deprived of your legal and democratic rights by a corrupt elite. If so, I might have some understanding, even if you do clearly still have a broadband internet connection and the requisite literacy levels to compose your OP.

QuiteLikely5 Fri 31-Mar-17 07:56:39


Ridiculous statement with a lack of insight and knowledge!

No one has a 'right' to be a criminal!!!!!!

If they were that entitled then they should have trained in a highly rewarding financial career

ShatnersWig Fri 31-Mar-17 07:58:38

Was going to answer but cba.

scaryclown Fri 31-Mar-17 07:58:50

I don't think benchmarking against favella dwellers or African poor makes the point that being good is better. Those are examples of poverty dehumanising and increasing crime, drugs, trafficking, prostitution, murder etc..Which I am syig is a logical and perhaps morally justified outcome of a system that steals politely by rule of law from too many of the population. Why should people have no rights because employers pay one type of person enough to eat, holiday, clothes fashionably, luxury items, and another with similar education and contribution, not enough to even wash their clothes every month?

scaryclown Fri 31-Mar-17 08:00:49

It's perfectly possible to be highly trained and educated and still in poverty job. The quals don't come with. a free job fairly allocated to your ability level hmm

ExitPursuedByUser54321 Fri 31-Mar-17 08:02:47

It's life innit. Who said it was fair?

ShatnersWig Fri 31-Mar-17 08:03:07

Actually, I will.

Average salary in the UK is £27,600. I earn £20,000. I run a car, have a mortgage on a flat, a pension, some savings. I have a couple of hobbies, I eat well, I go out. I work hard - some weeks 35 hours, this week 50 hours. I have a good standard of living despite being well below national average salary.

There are lots of things I would like to buy or do but as I can't afford them, I go without. I don't feel entitled to them.

I have also earned considerably less than £20,000 in the past but coped perfectly well without resorting to stealing. And no, no handouts, benefits, help from family. It's because I have self respect.

sunlitmeadow Fri 31-Mar-17 08:03:47

Most "career criminals" don't usually begin moulding perfectly to the system and become jaded.

Most begin young with a difficulty to adhere to societal norms and structures. I'm not suggesting this is all their fault for a moment, but there is often a pattern of low literacy skills, poor attendance at school, lots of school changes, permanent explusion(s).

Many of them will also have role models who flout authority and who have a different societal structure to ours (where might is right, for instance.)

You don't tend to get conscientious Mr Jones who worked hard but isn't bright who has a minimum wage job and is struggling to make ends meet suddenly turning to crime. I can see this might happen occasionally by accident (Mr Jones can't afford to insure his car and becomes involved in an accident) but you wouldn't get him committing a crime as a deliberate means to an end.

Although he probably would help himself to the sugar and jam in Wetherspoons.

RortyCrankle Fri 31-Mar-17 08:04:35

Totally ludicrous. If you think its fine for people to steal, let's hope it's your house that's ransacked and all precious possessions taken/destroyed - even if not valuable. You obviously have no problem with that.

BillSykesDog Fri 31-Mar-17 08:06:00

It's a good question poorly asked OP. I doubt it's what forces criminality. But I do think there a is a big issue with falling standards of living, unaffordability of housing and lack of opportunity.

EdithWeston Fri 31-Mar-17 08:10:01

I don't think crime is justified by being less well off in one of the richest societies on the planet.

No matter how hard a time you have, it is not permissible to take it out on your spouse by beating them, your neighbour's by nicking their stuff or the police by stabbing them.

bignamechangeroonie Fri 31-Mar-17 08:12:43

Stealing food makes sense to me. I have plenty of sympathy and am horrified at people stealing food to eat.

The gap in wealth in this country has just got worse and worse. It's really bad for us as a society.

There are very few people stealing food because they have to, but when they do the system should help instead of punish IMO

KarmaNoMore Fri 31-Mar-17 08:19:17

I'm in two minds about this.

In theory, you are wrong but... I am an educated person, slightly affluent background and with a good career until I became a SAHM BUT, after I split from my husband, I had a period with a very meagre income and still big bills to pay. I even had to be sofa surfing with DS for weeks as the boiler packed it in in the middle of the winter.

I never thought of stealing but things that poor people are more prone to do like eating unhealthy food, betting, etc. suddenly made sense.

I didn't go into any bad behaviours but I can now understand the level of helplessness and lack of hope can be such that it drives people to betting, drinking or stealing (there is no way out, or at least it feels like it after trying hard, working hard and still struggle much).

And agree with you, if someone can be working full time in a minimal salary and is still not be able to cover the expenses for basic needs like food and roof, it is the system that is broken.

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