to think the tories are actually ending social security?

[Rubix77]

I know many people believe that any reliance on the state is a trap and I can see that it might have that effect at times but it is also vital for people to survive for many people. It would be wonderful if all it took for everyone to suddenly find secure, sufficently paid employment was to end state support but this is just not the case at a time when jobs are disappearing overseas and to automation all the time.

The right wing ideology seems to be that we must take care of everything ourselves. Get a degree if you can, get a job if you can, start paying back your student loans, start paying into your pension by 25 (£250 a month they suggest) save for a deposit for a house or pay extortionate rent, get married, have a baby but mind don't leave it too late, take the double whammy hit of having a baby if your a woman to your work life and financially that having kids often means then go back to work asap and pay for expensive childcare while you are working if you don't have retired parents to help out which will increasingly be a thing of the past as people are having to work later and later into life as retirement is pushed back to 70! Then when you do have a sick or elderly relative you can also expect less and less support for them and will be expected to do more and more as state provison is increasingly scaled back in the name of balancing the books and getting us to stand on our own two feet.

The senario above is actually probably for someone who is by conventional measures doing well, there will be many others doing much worse due to ill health or lack of oppertunitiy struggling to even put food on the table never mind saving for a pension.

Most of us in this country are reliant on the state to some degree but some peoples reliance is demonised so that NHS or states schools or pensions are acceptable benefits are not. While we squabble amongst ourselves the system we have all come to rely on is being dismantled beneath us and many don't see it coming or the carnage it will cause. Its hardly true that we all lived decent lives through working hard before social secutiry, its a joke to imagine all businesses will step up to the plate and pay fairly if state support goes. You can work extremely hard and still live in poverty quite easily in this country. Brexit is also not going to make things any easier or better for ordinary people as I can't imagine the tories being keen to keep the EU's rules on workers rights for example.

Am I being unreasonable to think people should wake up and see where this is headed before its too late?

[The80sweregreat]

I totally agree, especially about the elderly parents part too - there will be less and less outside help available and people's homes are not equipped to deal with someone who is disabled or elderly or frail, let alone the 24 hour care they may need too, as well as trying to work and bring up children.
The future is very bleak - i am afraid of how things are going too. No answers to any of it though.

[rogueantimatter]

Not unreasonable IMO.

The DLA cuts are shocking. Same with abolishing grants for students from low income households.

I wish they would have the courage to start a proper debate about what the state can be expected to fund. Eg discuss the possibility of making people who have needed medical help as a result of drinking too much pay towards their treatment.

And invest in preventative health-care strategies. Eg subsidise gyms and leisure centres, make cycling easier and safer etc

[BarbarianMum]

The way I see it, we have 2 choices- either we pay more tax and enjoy a better benefits system and healthcare a la Denmark/Germany/Sweden. Or we have lower taxes and cut benefits. Trying to have lower taxes and generous benefits and the NHS as we have been doing doesn't work.

Personally I'm up for number 1 but I'm not voting for the fantasy that is the current situation.

[rogueantimatter]

And chase big organisations to pay their taxes.

Put an upper limit on rents charged by private buy to let landlords too.

[Rubix77]

Well I'm glad that there are some people broadly agreeing or at least not finding me unreasonable. Sometimes when I read peoples opinions on "welfare" I find it very depressing.

I certainly agree with making healthy lifestyle choices more affordable and making cycling safer, I would love to cycle round the town I live in but it isn't safe at all.

[expatinscotland]

YANBU

[CoolCarrie]

Higher taxes and making sure that tax dodgers like Jimmy Carr, Gary Barlow and many, many other high profile offenders are forced to pay up!

[Rubix77]

Barbarian Mum, I basically agree with you, that higher, progressive taxation is the way to go with the wealthest, especially those big companies rogueantimatter mentions paying the most.

The issue is that for most parties that seems to be taboo to even mention and labour are classed as unelectable for even suggesting it.

[lottieandmia]

The problem is now that people voted out of the EU, with all the problems that in itself will bring, the government has shifted to the right.

The Tories have never been interested in people who were born with fewer opportunities. Or in people who have had bad luck or lost their jobs. And they certainly don't give a shit about the disabled.

With all that said, my particular Tory MP has been really very helpful wrt my disabled daughter. He got her transport issues sorted out and always emails me back very promptly. I'm very grateful to him. But the core government are destroying the UK and I'm very bitter about it.

[BarbarianMum]

It wouldn't just be higher taxes for the wealthiest though, it would be higher taxes for most working people but on a sliding scale based on earnings. And I see no appetite here for that.

[Rubix77]

Yes BarbarianMum, I agree with you but it should be a progressove taxation system, a sliding scale as you say. I used to pay more tax under labour than I do now but it was worth it because of the additional support it provided in society.

[Firesuit]

The right wing ideology seems to be that we must take care of everything ourselves.

That alternative to everyone taking care of everything themselves is, roughly speaking, for half the people to pay double those expenses so the other half can have them for free.

[Firesuit]

Presumably you can see why roughly half the population don't think that's a wonderful idea?

[lottieandmia]

Firesuit - what a goady post. 'So the other half can have them for free' i imagine you're immune to disability and/or job loss?

[Rubix77]

Firesuit, I don't know just how wealthy you are but say you or a loved one fell seriously ill and required specialist health treatment on the NHS , treatment which might cost £250,000 or more. Can you afford to pay for that treatment out of pocket, especially if you consider that even with private health insurance certain treatments are only available via the NHS or considered elective by insurance companies.

If you cannot afford it then do you think the same logic should apply to you i.e. those wealthier than you saying why should I work and pay taxes to pay for the treatment that firesuit can't afford to pay for herself?

[CoolCarrie]

Half the population will hopefully have a compassionate side, there but for grace, luck, fortune, education, place of birth go you and I

[Havingahorridtime]

YANBU. This govt policy is to shotnin the sick, disabled, elderly and vulnerable from a great height. They are getting away with it because of the divide and rule game of Politics that they play.

[NoArmaniNoPunani]

YANBU. I'm worried things will get even worse and we'll lose the NHS. I'm a Labour member but I'm pissed off that they aren't doing enough in opposition to stop the Tories.

[Rubix77]

I am finding hard to work out what the issue is with labour as well. I have seen a few things recently where Jeremy Corbyn has been out giving a public speech and the news might show a video of him talking but then never actually lets you hear you what he is saying. Is the media against him, perhaps his refusal to do shows like the Andrew Marr Show etc on demand and to try and do the media differently has back fired on him.

I see a lot of people complaining online about him, saying he is unelectable but they can't really say why exactly. He does have his issues for sure (not least they fractures in the Labour party itself) but then when did we last have a really inspiring political leader? The only one who springs to mind is Nicola Sturgeon in Scotland she seems to have got people fired up but she isn't an answer to the UKs issues as a whole.

[BarbarianMum]

Sorry Carrie but I think that's too simplistic a way of looking at it. One thing is supporting a person in real need, another is supporting a person's lifestyle choices. And most of us don't agree on where the line between the two falls, even though we can all identify the extremes.

[Havingahorridtime]

But there are ways of ensuring the welfare state isn't supporting lifestyles whilst not penalising those who are in real need barbarian but the govt has instead chosen to demonise and penalise all poor people. I totally support the idea that people should be made to work more hours if those hours genuinely exist as they are a very small minority of people who will limit their working hours to maximise their benefit income. But with zero hours Contracts and a Shortage of hours in some regions not everyone can Simply obtain more hours easily. If the govt can prove that somebody has turned down additional hours then I would have no problem with their benefits being cut. But currently people are getting sanctioned for things beyond their control - for example: you have a job interview at the same
Time as your job centre appointment - you can't attend both at the same time but failing to attend either will mean your benefits are sanctioned and the job centre often won't allow either appointment time to be changed.
The cuts to certain disability benefits are just shocking and inhumane - People with no legs having their mobility allowance taken away because they can get around on a good day in a wheelchair.
I could go on....

[Rubix77]

I recall reading about the cuts to benefits comming in with Universal Credit. The government suggested you could just make up the shortfall by finding 200 hours more work in a year! That is more than an extra months work fulltime, where the hell is all this work? Hang on I'll just call my contacts at Blackrock or the Evening Standard to see if they can help me out with a few extra hours ... damn it George Osborne beat me to it.

[wasonthelist]

Eg discuss the possibility of making people who have needed medical help as a result of drinking too much pay towards their treatment.

I fundamentally disagree with this - by logical extension you could ask people who are injured by their own crappy driving to pay, or people who do sports and get injured. Either we care fro everyone or we don't.

I would prefer to pay more tax for better system, but it seems plenty of people (perhaps some are lucky enough to have no experience of disability or benefits or cannot imagine what it might be like) don't really care or think everyone who gets any benefits is taking the piss.

[RufusTheRenegadeReindeer]

I also agree

Especially with the elderly relatives bit

Dh and i are going to book ourselves into the dignitas clinic

We are just arguing over the right age (if he goes before me i might not do it...)

[thedcbrokemybank]

I agree that higher taxation is the way forward but i don't think the argument is that simplistic. Dh and I are high earners but we have high outgoings. Commuting is the biggest cost we face. We could move but we do not have a regular place of work. We live rurally, where our family are, and to move out would probably see our cost of living rise in other ways and we would lose our support network. Like a lot of people we work damned hard and generally just to get by. We can't affoRd to go on holiday this year, our house needs repainting and work done but again we can't afford it. Cost of living is high and I think people are just worn down by worKing harder and harder but without the rise in quality of life.
I am happy to pay more taxes but I guess I want to feel that this will actually make a difference. We pay a lot out in taxes already and I just see the education system, the NHS, even the quality of the road surfaces round here just getting worse and worse.

I fundamentally disagree with this - by logical extension you could ask people who are injured by their own crappy driving to pay, or people who do sports and get injured. Either we care fro everyone or we don't.
But the fundamental is that those people (okay not the crap driving but that is subjective) are not doing something that has known harmful effects. I don't think individuals should be made to pay but I do think that known harmful substances should be taxed very highly; alcohol, cigarettes, processed sugar (yes fruit juice too). These things provide no known benefits ang cause significant long term health damage. Sport on the other hand is generally the opposite - you are not doing despite knowing it is bad for you.