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IndyRef2 - AIBU to expect reasonableness?

(19 Posts)
emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 08:26:03

In the first referendum, 55% of us wanted to keep the Union whole with only 5 regions getting a majority 'yes'.

Orkney had 67% remain votes. The highest of the 5 'leave' regions was only 57%.

Using the pretext of Scotland's results in the Brexit referendum for IndyRef2 saying that the regional voting gives the SNP reason for a second vote, will Sturgeon allow the breakup of Scotland should any regions vote overwhelmingly to remain part of the Union?

The deluded bigot obviously won't allow this to happen but considering the regions who most wanted to remain part of the UK tended to be those in the South of Scotland and bordering England, I can see a strong argument for it.

Can anyone who thinks IndyRef2 is a good idea and supports the basis for it tell me why regions voting to remain should not be allowed to?

tabulahrasa Mon 20-Mar-17 08:31:23

Scotland isn't a region.

Rdoo Mon 20-Mar-17 08:32:50

How can you expect reasonableness when you call politician, who you disagree with, 'a deluded bigot' when her only crime is to hold a different view than you? Pathetic.

*not English, not Scottish, don't care if there's a referendum or not.

SaorAlbaGuBrath Mon 20-Mar-17 08:34:05

You're calling people names and expecting reasonableness? Lead by example and all that.

emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 08:46:29

Tab

Thanks. I was talking about the way various regions voted in the country's first referendum.

Rdoo Saor

You don't think she's deluded or you don't think she's bigoted?

They aren't names, they're very clearly used adjectives.

Deluded - impose a misleading belief upon (someone); deceive; fool

Bigoted - having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.

There's plenty of evidence for both.

Sadiq Kahn said it better than I could when he said of Sturgeon,

"Some in Scotland who try to define London as your enemy, who want to paint the city that I love as the home of ‘the elite’ or ‘the establishment’ – and who want the Scottish people to believe that London is a hotbed of conservatism. They make out that London is always working to undermine Scotland. I can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth. That is not my London and it’s not Labour’s London.”

Sturgeon's delusion is suggested by the fact that all polls at the moment suggest that not only does the majority not want a second referendum but that if there were one, the Unionists would win by an even bigger margin. When you take into account the enormous financial deficit and lies of Sturgeon, Salmond and the SNP re "once in a generation" as well as financial forecasts) I think it's accurate to call her deluded.

She isn't a criminal but she is happy to destroy Scotland for her own narrow-minded monomaniacal political ambitions.

I don't see how I'm pathetic. If I'd made a personal attack on her then that may be a called for comment but attacking her bigoted and deluded politics is not pathetic.

SaorAlbaGuBrath Mon 20-Mar-17 08:50:09

If you're so sure unionists would win, why do you care? Just because her opinion is different to yours doesn't make her wrong, or deluded. And Sadiq Khan compared nationalists to Nazis so forgive me for not particularly being interested in what he has to say.

Bottom line, however you vote, whatever you think, name calling and nastiness is unnecessary.

lovelycuppateas Mon 20-Mar-17 08:53:26

'deluded bigot'? Honestly. I would absolutely love reasonableness in this debate, but you have to stop the name-calling. It's possible to disagree with people without insulting them.

emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 08:57:26

hmm

Name calling and nastiness is not what I did. Do you understand what deluded and bigoted mean?

Yes, you're forgiven for not caring what he has to say. You seem rather invested in telling me I'm nasty without actually contributing anything.

If you're so sure unionists would win, why do you care?

I didn't say I was sure the Unionists would win.

I care because
1. I want to remain part of the Union
2. I think the last referendum was decisive
3. I think the referendum brought out the worst of both sides of the debate, divided friends and families and held the country back.

tabulahrasa Mon 20-Mar-17 08:58:01

"I was talking about the way various regions voted in the country's first referendum."

"Using the pretext of Scotland's results in the Brexit referendum for IndyRef2 saying that the regional voting gives the SNP reason for a second vote,"

No you weren't.

emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 08:59:41

See above lovelycup

I'm sorry if you see that as name calling. She is both deluded and bigoted and there is evidence for both.

Unionist scum (as I was called during the first ref) was nasty name calling.

VeryBitchyRestingFace Mon 20-Mar-17 09:00:29

Since you're such a GF yourself, OP, expecting reasonabless of others when you can't even attempt it yourself on your own thread is probably not ... reasonable. wink

SaorAlbaGuBrath Mon 20-Mar-17 09:02:17

Do I understand? Well that's not patronising at all hmm do you understand that you didn't say her politics were deluded and bigoted, you called her a deluded bigot.

emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 09:02:48

"Using the pretext of Scotland's results in the Brexit referendum for IndyRef2 saying that the regional voting gives the SNP reason for a second vote,"

No you weren't.

Yes I was. perhaps I wasn't clear.

Despite the Brexit vote being inclusive of NI, Eng.. Scotland and Wales and giving a single result, Sturgeon has said that because Scotland voted to remain there should be IndyRef2. She is treating the Scottish votes as different to the rest of the referendum.

emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 09:04:33

you called her a deluded bigot

She is.

If someone displays racism I would call them racist. If they were homophobic I would call them a homophobe.

scottishdiem Mon 20-Mar-17 09:08:08

"reasonableness"

Does not include calling people bigots. It you want reasonable you dont call them deluded either. Misinformed perhaps. Incorrect in a number of assumptions would also work.

Observe:

I may as well say that those who vote to remain with the UK are tying themselves to the racist, xenophobic and nativist hate that Westminster is so clearly set up. Westminster politicians are so enthralled by the Daily Mail and Daily Express (then the Sun, Telegraph, etc.) that they cannot actually treat people with basic human dignity and to vote to stay with Westminster is to agree with them and their hate.

But lets move away from the nasty foreign people that the English and there UKIP supporting Welsh colleagues are so concerned about. The UN has raised "grave concerns" about how Westminster treats disabled people. As is systematically shown by the people of England voting for the Tories continually, its clear disabled people are as feared and as hated as the foreigners. England and Wales for abled bodied white Brits only! Indy supporting Scots have a better view of disabled people compared to those who support the views of people who want to stay in the UK.

From certain point of view, that was a reasonable point of view. Others would disagree.

SaorAlbaGuBrath Mon 20-Mar-17 09:08:15

It is possible to disagree with someone without being offensive and patronising. Why can't people see that? Usually the ones quickest to jump on the "it's causing divisions" bandwagon without a trace of self awareness that it's their way of speaking that's causing division. And you call Nicola deluded. grin

emanresudilavni Mon 20-Mar-17 09:16:33

"Does not include calling people bigots"

Never? How about someone who was hanging out their car window shouting "go home p*kis, you come here and take our jobs blah blah...".

Surely that wouldn't be unreasonable. If someone is bigoted or deluded then it's acceptable (IMO) to call them such.

I may as well say that those who vote to remain with the UK are tying themselves to the racist, xenophobic and nativist hate that Westminster is so clearly set up.

No, because that would be a massive generalisation whereas I was specifically talking about one person. A public figure who makes her opinions, beliefs and ideals very well known.

tabulahrasa Mon 20-Mar-17 09:29:08

"She is treating the Scottish votes as different to the rest of the referendum."

Yes - but it's still not comparable to regional voting within Scotland because Scotland isn't a region of the UK.

It was in the manifesto for the last election, it's not exactly a huge shock that she's now pushing for it.

scottishdiem Mon 20-Mar-17 09:38:46

Well if you are equating a manifesto commitment to shouting racisim from a car then we are never going to agree on what is reasonable as your starting position, is of itself, remarkably unreasonable.

And by their votes, newspaper buying habits and general disposition in independence I think we can understand the opinions, beliefs and ideals of a great many people.

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