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to think that the NHS has a poor management problem, rather than a funding problem?

(44 Posts)
Otherpeoplesteens Wed 11-Jan-17 14:12:08

How can this possibly be justified when they constantly moan about lack of front line resources? Surely the need for one of these indicates the rest of the management isn't up to the job?

www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/9d1a745b46d4961077d1a7dbfbfcb280/?vac_ref=914468963

corythatwas Wed 11-Jan-17 14:13:09

Does the one exclude the other?

FortyFacedFuckers Wed 11-Jan-17 14:14:22

As someone who works for the NHS I agree wholeheartedly!

ThroughThickAndThin01 Wed 11-Jan-17 14:14:51

Yanbu, I agree OP.

nethunsreject Wed 11-Jan-17 14:14:55

I think both are true.

Ginmakesitallok Wed 11-Jan-17 14:17:06

Nhs boards have specific legal obligations under equality legislation. It's not management's fault that these obligations are imposed and need people to implement them.

Richteadipped2 Wed 11-Jan-17 14:18:49

Couldnt agree more.

Otherpeoplesteens Wed 11-Jan-17 14:20:22

Gin every employer has legal obligations under equality legislation. Very few of them employ an Associate Director of Inclusion and Community who then somehow needs an Assistant Director of Equality and Diversity.

In the real world the rest of the management includes it in their responsibilities. They don't throw in the region of £100k plus on costs at it! This reeks of empire-building or jobs for the boys/girls.

Justanothernameonthepage Wed 11-Jan-17 14:22:44

Well in 2 mins of Google, I've found senior HR role adverts with 90k salary in Manchester. Similar role in Doncaster (not NHS) at 60k. Looks like I should have gone into HR when I graduated....

MaidOfStars Wed 11-Jan-17 14:29:07

Despite the rather common trope that the NHS is full of middle management jobsworths ordering pointless artwork for dreary walls, the NHS operates with a remarkably low proportion of management staff (4%), compared to other enterprises, especially those of a similar size (approx 15%).

ladyme Wed 11-Jan-17 14:34:31

Actually, given the changes that are going ahead in the NHS (A&E closures etc), I'm rather pleased it's someone's job to make sure that those whose voices are less likely to be heard, are actually heard.

icanteven Wed 11-Jan-17 14:35:47

Actually, you could argue that there isn't ENOUGH management and administration in the NHS. A friend of mine is a GP and a LOT of her (substantially salaried) time is spent on admin that should be done by a medical secretary on £22k a year - ordering blood tests, writing letters, reading letters, chasing blood test results, processing blood test results, learning new codes when the NHS changes them all again etc etc.

You could probably double her MEDICAL output with a different, dedicated and comprehensive administrative structure backing her up.

But I agree, that job in the OP seems ridiculous and wasteful.

BadKnee Wed 11-Jan-17 14:36:40

Agree - it seriously pisses me off.

BadKnee Wed 11-Jan-17 14:37:34

Actually it is all about being seen to be doing the right thing rather than actually doing it. But that is another thread.

BadKnee Wed 11-Jan-17 14:41:07

icanteven - isn't that something the practice has control over? I agree that good support staff are vital.

(I was in a professional role and we had a support admin person who was brilliant! They cut her job to save money and we had to do all our own copying, ordering, ringing up, booking, typing out etc sort of stuff. We were getting far less actual fee-earning work done. Mad)

JustAnotherPoster00 Wed 11-Jan-17 14:48:07

Yeah as we all know the tories are always criticised for their overfunding of the NHS hmm

Otherpeoplesteens Wed 11-Jan-17 14:48:24

Actually it is all about being seen to be doing the right thing rather than actually doing it. But that is another thread.

Sometimes it's worse - doing the wrong thing for the "right reasons". It's why the NHS loves processes - nobody ever got fired for following process.

BoomBoomsCousin Wed 11-Jan-17 14:54:46

I think targets based cultures, especially ones where there aren't the resources to actually provide the service expected, can lead to poor management. But organizations the size of most NHS trusts need good HR diversity and inclusion policies. Especially since Recruitment and retention are a huge pressure on most NHS trusts.

CockacidalManiac Wed 11-Jan-17 14:59:29

Despite the rather common trope that the NHS is full of middle management jobsworths ordering pointless artwork for dreary walls, the NHS operates with a remarkably low proportion of management staff (4%), compared to other enterprises, especially those of a similar size (approx 15%).

Good point. I've worked both in the public and private sector; I've seen bad management in both.
If you think that the NHS isn't being deliberately underfunded for ideological reasons though, then you're an idiot.

mirime Wed 11-Jan-17 15:02:52

Given the amount of discrimination in mental health services - and the discrimination against mental health issues in physical health settings, I don't see a problem with this particularly.

Our local Equalities chap is lovely, really helpful, has provided training for service users so they know their rights.

And proper admin support is vitally important. It's one thing that seems to have been cut in our health board and it just means people on higher wages spend some of their time doing admin which is not a good use of their time. Or occasionally, as a helpful third sector organisation we've helped out.

brasty Wed 11-Jan-17 15:09:59

Often public sector posts can sound like a waste of money, as they don;t actually tell outsiders what the person is doing.
I remember a post where I used to work being ridiculed in social media. In fairness the job title and description sounded meaningless. It wasn't actually. The post was actually essential.
So this may be a waste of time, or may be highly needed.Impossible to tell from what the OP posted.

Otherpeoplesteens Wed 11-Jan-17 15:12:37

BoomBoomsCousin is right on the money, I think. The only people that break out of junior management in the NHS are the target hitters. They get promoted into general management positions when they are, in fact, production managers and because they're not up to the job the cracks have to be papered over with an ever-expanding army of support management such as Equality and Diversity specialists. This won't help recruitment and retention though, because outsourcing E&D to a specialist team might help devise a strategy, and it might even conjure an Equality Impact Assessment (in splendid isolation from the actual service) where needed but it won't stop the useless manager being useless!

DailyFail1 Wed 11-Jan-17 15:18:11

Professional project and programme management support is vital - too often NHs boards pay too much to programme managers and then run out of budget to provide prog accountants, pmos, bas. In private sector, it's the opposite- will have more of the support staff and fewer programme managers who then manage multiple programmes.

The only fix is to recruit externally out of the existing pool of NhS/government experience and into sectors where project/programme/portfolio work is done incredibly well- engineering, banking, oil & gas.

Otherpeoplesteens Wed 11-Jan-17 15:21:45

The only fix is to recruit externally - hahaha. That'll be the day!

BillSykesDog Wed 11-Jan-17 15:28:00

I completely agree and I have also worked for the NHS in a variety of different project roles both under Labour and the coalition. There was an absolute gravy train under Labour and you had people being paid huge amounts of money to sit in shiny offices pushing around paper and speaking in impenetrable jargon who never saw the inside of a hospital or clinic and added zero value to patients. I'm talking obscene amounts of money. Sometimes I was paid up to £40k a year just to sit round and look busy.

I also worked in fantastic frontline services with dedicated staff which were well run and committed to good patient care. But when the cuts came in the shiny office staff had influence and guess who got cut? That's right. The excellent services. And even when the 'shiny office' people are cut they just set up consultancies and sell their services back for even more money.

The problem is that you are never going to get rid of a lot of these layers of pointless management because they're the decision makers. They implement the cuts and they are tight knit groups who scratch each other's backs and are more interested in preserving a cushy existence for their mandarin class than benefitting patients and that's what they keep in mind when organising services. They would rather cut a service which was great for patients than cut one which was a bit pointless but paid lots of managers. And few people who know this will speak out because most people who know are financially benefitting from it.

I feel sorry for frontline staff and the good managers. I worked in some truly excellent services managed by ex nurses, doctors and midwives who were hands on and knew their stuff so could run services practically with patient care at the forefront. Most of those services are gone. But the departments with business graduates who never see a patient from one year to the next are still there.

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