-isms.

[dailyshite]

This is a thread inspired by a thread, rather than a TAAT.

Does anyone else think that sometimes, when there are clear 'isms' being displayed on a thread it is a fantastic illustration of what some people have to deal with every single day and an opportunity to raise awareness and challenge some of the misconceptions and poor attitudes which make people's lives so difficult.

When these are deleted, it shuts down the debate and the cycle of ignorance keeps going.

[Devilishpyjamas]

I was a bit disappointed the 'aggressive' lady in a cafe post was deleted - despite some of the horrifically ignorant posts. My son has a lot of distressed behaviours & it was a chance to talk about them (albeit I gave up seeing it as my role to 'educate' the general ignorant public years ago

[KathArtic]

It does annoy me when people post 'go educate yourself'. It gets peoples backs up - but thats the point, to piss others off -which it does and the whole thing takes on a nasty tone.

There's nothing better than someone explaining or giving an example

[MilkTwoSugarsThanks]

I do agree. I think "go educate yourself" and "it's not my job to educate others" sort of cancel each other out iyswim. Where is anyone supposed to get the information from if not from the people who experience it? I can't believe that a generic book by an expert could get even close to what it's like to live with day to day.

[Pagwatch]

I think the problem with being expected to educate people is that it's exhausting and endless.
I have been 'educating' people about autism for 18 years and the depth of the stupidity and the extent of the casual bigotry makes me want to lie down and cry sometimes. Other times I don't give a shit. And sometimes I just want to tell people who say crushingly stupid things that they should shut their mouths and go educate themselves. And sometimes I spend hours and hours explaining and engaging and two days later another nasty post pops up and I wonder what the point is.

[Devilishpyjamas]

My unwillingness to see my role as being to educate comes from years of getting a mouthful (paragraph) of abuse on here after takin my time to explain about my (very vulnerable) son.

People who are interested don't need educating, they ask questions, listen, share. Those who need educating aren't generally willing to listen. And I don't want to feel I have exposed my son to their toxicity.

If people are fucking idiots in RL, I keep my son away from them. Same online really.

After years of it I just want him to be able to do the things he likes doing as much as possible. Some things he likes are hard to access now, but him doing them is of more interest to me than what the people around him think or understand.

[Devilishpyjamas]

And if people are genuinely interested there are loads of books/blogs etc

All people generally need though is a bit of empathy & imagination. If they're lacking that there's no point. All the personal stories in the world will make no difference whatsoever.

[WorraLiberty]

I completely agree OP and Milk. Mumsnet has been worth its weight in gold for me and a lot of other posters WRT learning about disabilities and the problems/attitudes people face on a daily basis.

But for every poster who is fed up/exhausted/doesn't want to educate people here, there are plenty who are happy to do so.

That's why I think Mumsnet is a very interesting mix of people.

[MrsJayy]

I am mid 40s i was a disability activist in the 80s i marched i protested i tried to educate and change mindset raise awareneas I don't think things have not really changed just people say things in a nicer way mumsnet is littered with isms it is 2017 nearly and still we have to educate them it is othering people should just think for themselves and not be dicks.

[Pagwatch]

MrsJayy - yep!
I think we could drop the need for 80% of the education if people did indeed just stop being dicks

[Devilishpyjamas]

Yes agreed - that's what I meant by people just need empathy and imagination.

[MrsJayy]

it is so frustrating that thread the op is onabout was obviously goady and people were drawn in

[dailyshite]

I think the thread about the cafe was a great example, when I first read the OP I was shocked by it but all credit to her, she was really open to hearing another perspective.

I missed some of the really out of order posts, I suspect that the people who wrote them are just the type of people who have one perspective and refuse to discuss it (or just enjoy upsetting people).

It's not just that thread (although in fairness, it was the one which prompted this), I've had recent conversations with people who didn't seem to accept that a male with additional needs might be vulnerable, because of those needs. I disengaged after a while, but I'd like to think that for everyone who refuses to accept the lived experience of others there are people who do understand that their experience is not universally reflective.

Sorry, I'm probably just rambling.

[SnatchedPencil]

It is better to discuss things with people and to make them think about why they have certain views than just shout them down and tell them to shut up.

It is not necessarily comfortable but isolating people so that they only socialise with people who agree with them is a sure-fire way for them to reinforce and become more entrenched in their viewpoint.

Society changes and what is "acceptable" or "unacceptable" to say or think changes too. Fifty years ago homosexuality was illegal. The persecution they suffered legally then would be illegal itself now. The point I am making is that what is deemed "right" and "wrong" today will perhaps not always be the case. I am certain that some things we do today will be frowned upon or outlawed in fifty years from now. We will be seen as backwards, as barbarians even.

Society changes, it is ever-evolving. We change our opinions by discussing them and by seeing evidence. We don't change our opinions because someone just tells us that we are wrong, and we can't have a debate on it.

I always think that if I agree with everything I read or hear, I'm probably in the wrong place. I try to remember that just because I know something to be true, there is an outside possibility that it might not be, or at least I might be persuaded to change my mind in time.

A lot of people think that the way to overcome intolerance is to be intolerant of it. This is self-defeating. The way to overcome intolerance is to make people think about why they have those beliefs and whether they are justified. Perhaps they are wrong, perhaps you are. Screaming at them that they are racist or sexist or homophobic will not make them change their mind. They need to realise it for themselves.

[SunshineInTheRain]

I have adhd. And a number of other disabilities. If people want to be educated all they have to do is listen to my experience. On mn, as in life, it is constantly shut down, invalidated and dismissed.

Often those open to being educated are those who already have educated themselves. Those who arn't open to it, who disregard first hand experience if what it is like to live with disabilities, are better being reported ime. It's also sadly often parents of kids with disabilities making the ignorant judgements, or its teachers, or hcp, or sw. Which just makes me feel like giving up.

[Devilishpyjamas]

Some people aren't interested though. If you have a thread where reasons for people with learning disabilities behaving in a certain way has been explained and then someone comes on and talks about someone with LD's 'abusing' a child (not the word used, but a similar one was) or says people like that shouldn't be allowed out - there isn't really anywhere to go. Except as far away from them as possible. People that lacking in empathy or understanding, people that ignorant do not ime suddenly 'get it' and I don't see it as my job to try & educate them. I'd rather just protect myself & family from them.

[Spikeyball]

Some threads attract goady disablist cunts. They don't want to be educated so there is no point in trying.
One of the problems with a whole thread being deleted is that it removes the record of there disablist posts.

[MrsJayy]

I agree they dont want to be educated they think disability should not encroach into their lives and bother them and if they feel bothered they are looking for validation not education.

[SunshineInTheRain]

And snatched pensil I am willing to be it was your post reported that did it, your claim the woman needed taught to over come her sn and the molesting claim. Not really appropriate for you to be on this thread unless your apologising first being so out of line.

Disabilism is a form of abuse, even when it's not directly directed to me it still stings. It's not our responsibility to teach abusers to not be abusive any more than a beaten woman should stay with her violent husband and work harder at teaching him not to hit her.

[Sirzy]

I am always happy to answer people's questions and explain things when people are genuinely interested. Whether on a thread on here or in real life.

Sadly though some people aren't willing to listen, or to step back and see life from someone else's POV. And they are the people who most need "educating" but are unwilling to let it happen so often it is pointless.

[Devilishpyjamas]

Oh yes I saw it was snatched after writing my reply.

So what would 'educate' you that people with learning disabilities showing distressed behaviours are not 'molesting' anyone?

Over the last two years my learning disabled son has shown frequent physical distressed behaviours (self injurious & directed st others). He requires 24 hour 2:1 care.

For the rest of this thread I am willing to 'educate' - feel free to ask any questions.

[MrsJayy]

Yeah if somebody asks a question or advice i will answer I am not a complete cow and shout educate yourself however there is sometimes I just can't muster any energy to educate people who dont engage their brains

[dailyshite]

Devilish - thank you.

My DS also has complex LD and Neurodevelopmental needs, he will need lifelong support and supervision but most of his needs are around his vulnerability because of the behaviour of others. I completely agree that if people stopped being dicks we wouldn't need to have these conversations, however people don't always realise they are being dicks, and it's around a lack of knowledge. So perhaps the willingness to answer questions is what is needed if all posters enter into an implicit (or explicit) contract that questions will be phrased in an inoffensive way?

[dailyshite]

But sometimes dickish behaviour is a useful demonstration of what people with disabilities (in this instance) have to deal with on a daily basis, so that those who aren't dicks are shocked by it and think about it.

[hazeyjane]

Often though people post on a thread something ignorant and hurtful - and yet when someone asks, 'but why do you think that way?' (and I am thinking of a particular poster on a particular thread about children with sn in schools) - the poster doesn't come back to the thread.

It is disheartening to keep having the same argument again and again, and there are some who are so immune to kindness or empathy that it feels rather pointless. There are also times where real life is throwing a 1000 tiny crap balls you and you can't be doing with patiently explaining how to be a decent human.

I do actually think that threads and posts should be left to stand, although I (personally) would like posts that are disabilist to be highlighted in bright cerise with the word WANK stamped across it.

[RichardBucket]

After all the complaining MNHQ have had to put up with around disablism, it's no wonder they're taking the easiest course of action and shutting those threads down.