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To not understand what Laurie Love's Aspergers has to do with his extradition

(305 Posts)
Olympiathequeen Tue 15-Nov-16 10:50:57

Not an autism bashing thread please.

But he is a political activist. He knew what he was doing and that it was wrong.

If 10 year olds who know the difference between right and wrong can be held criminally responsible why can't he?

He caused damage and expense to the US government so he should pay for it like anyone else.

He may be a suicide risk but so are many people in jail.

Surely his Aspergers is irrelevant?

Sixisthemagicnumber Tue 15-Nov-16 10:54:21

Is this the guy that hacked into the US computer system? If so, then I think his aspergers is very relevant. People with aspergers can be so focused on their obsessions they don't stop to think about consequences. That's not to say that people should be let off their crimes because they have aspergers (otherwise they could commit murder and get away with it). But in the case I don't think his actions had any real detrimental consequences and I would consider leniency.

Olympiathequeen Tue 15-Nov-16 10:59:59

Apparently it has cost millions of dollars to repair and secure these systems. He is a political activist not some teenage geek locked away in his bedroom. He conspired with others to hack sensitive systems.

He's intelligent. He must have known it was against the law and there are consequences. Being obsessive doesn't make you blind or stupid.

AndNowItsSeven Tue 15-Nov-16 11:00:19

He didn't fully understand what he was doing thatcwas the point.
Yes ten year olds are criminally responsible but they go through the juvenile court system. Also if a ten year old had hacked he wouldn't be extradited.
I don't think you understand asd or the fact that it is a spectrum at all op.

Sixisthemagicnumber Tue 15-Nov-16 11:01:31

I wasn't aware that he had conspired with others. I thought he was just a loner who liked cracking codes on the computer in his bedroom. The conspiracy element changes my view. Why are we spending money preventing his extradition?

Sixisthemagicnumber Tue 15-Nov-16 11:04:02

That was I thought seven, but did he conspire with others? Was he taken advantage of? I have a ds with asd so I have some understanding but if a competent individual commits s crime and is deemed to be of a mental age where they understand right from wrong they do have to face punishments. Has the criteria for Doli incapax been satisfied?

Ekorre Tue 15-Nov-16 11:04:32

People with ASD may be very intelligent in certain areas but still have a variety of problems including executive functioning, obsessiveness and black and white thinking. In short being able to see the wood from the trees, getting stuck on one thing rather than being able to stop within a task and judge whether it is appropriate to continue.

Also people with ASD struggle with change of routine and being out of familiar surroundings, so he may find it much harder than your average person to deal with being in a new country and away from familiar people, surroundings, food and accents. If he is already suicidal this will make it much worse.

People with ASD have a lower life expectancy than average in part due to conditions that often go along with ASD but also because they are more likely to kill themselves because of the stress of having to navigate through the world.

DixieNormas Tue 15-Nov-16 11:05:36

I cant find anything saying he has Asperger's, he has suffered MH problems is all I can find.

Gary McKinnon had his extradition refused due to his Asperger's

AndNowItsSeven Tue 15-Nov-16 11:07:53

Dixie he does have aspergers and psychosis. Op nowhere does it say he conspired with others . Has it not crossed your mind how easily someone with autism can be manipulated by others?

crashdoll Tue 15-Nov-16 11:08:20

I'm not sure to be honest. I don't know enough about the case or his cognitive functioning. I do think he should receive some sort of punishment but in what way, I'm not sure.

peggyundercrackers Tue 15-Nov-16 11:08:31

Apparently it has cost millions of dollars to repair and secure these systems

heres a thought, maybe these govt. systems should have been secure in the first place so people cant hack them. no repairs were needed, they just need to do their job properly. if someone can hack in from their bedroom don't you think countries like china can do it?

Olympiathequeen Tue 15-Nov-16 11:11:03

I don't think Gary McKinnon was a political activist or conspired with others for political ends, which was what Laurie Love did. I think that's the difference.

I just think this give people with Aspergers a bad name. Most live in society and understand you don't rob banks or hack into defence computers.

Using Aspergers as a get out of jail card devalues the contribution other people with Aspergers give to society. It should be used as an excuse.

DixieNormas Tue 15-Nov-16 11:11:21

Well someone suffering psychosis is very unlikely to be thinking rationally, I think Gary Mckinnon believed there was some alien conspiracy.

Not to mention how vulnerable to manipulation they could be as a pp said

Ekorre Tue 15-Nov-16 11:11:23

Hasn't it been suggested that hackers should be hired by governments and big institutions to challenge their systems to make sure they are secure? Like ex-burglars trying to break into your house to let you know where to improve security.

GuttedAboutBrother Tue 15-Nov-16 11:11:25

He's my brother. The Aspergers is relevant partly because it does cause him to become obsessed about things, and wanting to crack codes etc. just to know that he can. Also he's easily led by others. But the main relevance of it is because it places him at greater risk in a US prison as they cannot care for his medical needs (not just Aspergers but extremely severe stress induced eczema which has led to antibiotic resistant skin infections, without proper hygiene and care he will get very ill, not to mention the compromised immune system that will make him ill with everything in a crowded prison environment). It was shown quite clearly in court that US prisons do not adequately take care of the needs of vulnerable people.

He can't even live alone at the age of 30. Our parents are his carers. The Forum Bar was supposed to protect vulnerable people like him but it failed

PigPigTrotters Tue 15-Nov-16 11:11:30

The ASD may mean he has a very spiky cognitive profile, meaning he very well might not understand any consequences of his actions whilst hyper-focusing.

There should also be leniency towards extradition because of the effect this may have on his mental health.
No he shouldn't have done it, but there needs to be understanding of asperger's in order for him to be treated fairly.

(Times like this I am very grateful that my special interest is clouds!)

Sixisthemagicnumber Tue 15-Nov-16 11:13:24

Thanks dixie it was Gary McKinnon who I was thinking about. I have just read up on this Laurier love person and despite his psychosis and aspergers he is a computer scientist and I imagine would satisfy the criteria for Doli incapax (ability to understand right from wrong) and therefore I imagine at some point he will lose his appeal and be extradited. The fact he sent messages saying he could bring the F-ing US govt down suggests that he knew he was doing something wrong and will Likely go against him.

PigPigTrotters Tue 15-Nov-16 11:13:26

Gutted, I'm so sorry. Everything I've heard on the news has screamed out that there is no understanding of asperger's, and too many people assuming that as he is capable of hacking he is capable of understanding the consequences.
What a difficult time flowers

Bountybarsyuk Tue 15-Nov-16 11:13:29

He was part of a group of activist hackers, campaigning against the death of Aaron Schwarz who was himself a campaign activist.

The picture of him sitting alone in his bedroom doing this stuff alone isn't accurate, nor is the one with his parents sitting next to him as if he's a teen, he's in his thirties, however that's not to say he's not very vulnerable, and given it's relatively easy to stop him hacking into stuff (restrict computer use), I don't think he needs to be extradited or if he faces trial in the US, he could be returned to the UK to serve his sentence if found guilty.

Bountybarsyuk Tue 15-Nov-16 11:15:30

Gutted I am sorry about your brother, I think you make a good case for him not being extradited, what would happen if he was kept here? Would he go on trial here?

PigPigTrotters Tue 15-Nov-16 11:16:08

Bounty, someone with asperger's may well be living with parents still in a caring role, thirties or not hmm

Olympiathequeen Tue 15-Nov-16 11:18:08

The news articles say he conspired with 2-4 other people.

Part of me has sympathy because he either disregarded the possible consequences or didn't recognise them, but this is also true of other criminals. If they didn't we wouldn't have any crime!

Sixisthemagicnumber Tue 15-Nov-16 11:19:08

Just because a person is likely to suffer adverse health in a prison environment doesn't mean they should be let off for their crimes. Even in this country we have a very high number of prisoners with adverse mental and physical health and the prison system doesn't adequately look after them. Suicide attempts and actual suicides happen very regularly even in The UK but we don't let people walk free from their crimes because prison might do them harm. What if he had murdered somebody because he was obsessed with crime novels, should we just let him off because he might struggle in prison or might have a deterioration in his health?

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp Tue 15-Nov-16 11:20:16

He needs to be punished/fined and banned from computers. He will continue to do it if not stopped

Question is how. There must be alternatives where he is kept safe and well

To be honest though, prison itself is enough to cause anyone mental health anguish. Do we protect every prisoner from that? It's a by product of committing a crime

Bountybarsyuk Tue 15-Nov-16 11:20:18

Pig that's very true, however he obviously is independent enough to mount a sustained campaign against the US government with other hackers and enter and compromise their security systems. It's difficult to say no responsibility whatsoever should attach to that, although I don't think extradition is the answer here.

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