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Ex refusing I return 3yo after contact

(145 Posts)
Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 17:24:09

Contact 10-4 Saturdays. No overnights due to catalogue of concerns re home environment/domestic abuse
Waiting for court on Dec 5th.

Went for contact today, due home at 4, text saying he is keeping him overnight will return him tomorrow at 6 and there is nothing I can do about it. DS hadnt stayed overnight there for 6 months. He left this morning thinking he would be coming back to me after.

Police can't do anything without a court order.
He's also stopped maintenance this month to 'punish' me.

He's such a cunt.

nippey Sat 05-Nov-16 18:05:33

That's awful! I'm sorry I have no wise words or advice but am sending wine and flowers

Flisspaps Sat 05-Nov-16 18:07:44

Have Social Services agreed no overnight contact or is it your decision?

If it's Social Services, can you alert the duty Social Worker? They may not be able to do anything tonight but it won't look good for him in court, surely?

BratFarrarsPony Sat 05-Nov-16 18:08:38

how horrible for you and for the child.
This will not look good for him at court though will it? flowers

ImperialBlether Sat 05-Nov-16 18:09:03

I'd be beside myself. Is his contact in writing?

Soubriquet Sat 05-Nov-16 18:11:01

What would happen if you sent
"Oh good. Excellent. Would love a night off. I'm going to get dressed now and go out for the evening. So glad you've stepped up to be a dad to your son again"

Sorry OP must be very stressful for you

JenLindleyShitMom Sat 05-Nov-16 18:11:11

Well that's contact knocked on the head until you get a court order saying he has to go isn't it?

Sit tight for now until he brings him home tomorrow. Say nothing to him when he returns him, just bring DS inside and shut the door. Have you a solicitor. Call solicitor first thing Monday morning and have this recorded. Keep all texts, write down exactly what happened.

JenLindleyShitMom Sat 05-Nov-16 18:12:07

Do not send that message as suggested by soubriquet

Soubriquet Sat 05-Nov-16 18:13:23

I wasn't saying send it, just asking what would happen IF you said that.

Sixweekstowait Sat 05-Nov-16 18:19:33

How awful. I assume you are keeping the text as evidence. Can you get advice this week as to whether you can refuse to allow contact next w/ e in view of this behaviour?

JenLindleyShitMom Sat 05-Nov-16 18:21:01

Yes she can refuse contact as there Is no order in place.

Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 18:24:38

Yes, I have a solicitor. After last weekend when he bought him home 2 hours late, solicitor wrote to him and said he needs to bring him home by 4 or they will be forced to 'give me certain advice'

This is it now. I can't ever trust him again. Until I have a court order, he just can't see him. So wish it didn't have to be like this.

bluecashmere Sat 05-Nov-16 18:28:41

This is horrible for you and for your ds.

That won't look great for him in court but once you have a court order in place it should be easier to manage contact. If you refuse future contact he may use it against you though.

The sad truth is that he may well be granted overnights in court as they aren't interested unless there is evidence of significant problems. What is the situation there? Has there been police involvement? What about cafcass?

SemiNormal Sat 05-Nov-16 18:29:19

So sorry you're going through all this, it's so horrible and not fair on your little one at all. My ex would pull stupid shit like this too. Try to at least console yourself that this is NOT going to look good on him in court.

Is there any way you could have contact arranged through supervised visits whilst waiting for court? it may not be something he will accept of course but your offer, under the circumstances, will at least show you are trying your best to be reasonable.

RandomMess Sat 05-Nov-16 18:37:21

Remember when you go to court to get a power of arrest attached to the contact arrangements.

I guess I would also be asking for a contact centre to be used when contact is restarted to "build trust" especially do to the concerns you have.

Also on the phone to CMS, no more private maintenance arrangement.

Oh and yes go out this evening, you can't achieve anything by staying in so ensure you get some good company to distract you!

SquinkiesRule Sat 05-Nov-16 18:38:51

I'd just stop all visits till there is a court order too, if the police can do nothing and there is no one in his family that agrees with you and would go get him for you, all you can do is sit tight.
Don't text back, he's sitting there on pins waiting for you to go ballistic and start texting and calling like a mad woman.
He knows he's supposed to return him, all you can do is wait and say nothing at drop off, close the door and see the solicitor Monday. Then don't be there for any more of his pick ups till an order is in place.
I'll bet if he gets no reaction, he is going to start texting and goading you, keep them all.

EweAreHere Sat 05-Nov-16 18:47:16

If he can't be trusted, you'll have to stop the visits.

And keep a record of it. When he returns the child, tell him this issue will be coming up in court since his word is clearly no good.

pipsqueak25 Sat 05-Nov-16 18:52:41

what a shit ! stay strong and try to keep occupied, don't contact him and say very little or nothing tomorrow on return, most of all stay strong and focused for monday and prepare for your phone calls to cms

slenderisthenight Sat 05-Nov-16 18:53:38

How awful for you sad Could you ask to speak to your child on the phone, just so he knows everything is alright and you think he is safe? If he knows you wouldn't be happy about him staying it will probably ramp up his stress levels.

gizmo79 Sat 05-Nov-16 18:55:07

God what a horrible chap. So sorry your going through this.
Some exes just love having the control sadly. Try your hardest to ignore and court isn't far away. Good luck.

headinthecloud Sat 05-Nov-16 19:04:06

Well he's fucked up any future access I would imagine.
Am really thinking of you tonight as I would be feeling quite murderous if I was you.

emmyhNL Sat 05-Nov-16 19:06:32

Agree with everyone here. Stay strong, get your ass to a solicitor first thing on Monday and get this all done. Do you have a social worker? Not sure I saw that answer but if you do, call them and get this logged.

Log everything for court. I hope your DC will be OK as his expectations are changing too.

lightsandresistance Sat 05-Nov-16 19:10:41

Say nothing. Get ds home tomorrow, smile, shut the door , stop contact and ring solicitor.

Don't let him think he has got one over you.

queenofthebucket Sat 05-Nov-16 19:43:14

God, how predictable and destructive. Sorry you're having to deal with this. So he is reacting to being "told off" by your solicitor. Make sure in court you point out how he is prepared to put your son's emotional wellbeing to one side in order to satisfy his own ego with his bullying tactics.

As everyone else says, try not to react, that is what he is aiming for. Hope your little boy is not too upset.

Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 19:48:50

Thanks all. DP is making a curry, I've got a G&T and I'm going to try to enjoy sleeping past 5am in the morning. I'm really hoping DS is enjoying the adventure, but equally am sure ex doesn't have pjs or nappies or anything for him - unless he does, but that would suggest that this was totally premeditated and planned.

QueenLizIII Sat 05-Nov-16 19:51:38

When you finally do get a Court order, draw it to the courts attention at his failure to comply with contact arrangements and ask the Court to attach a Penal Notice to the Order.

Obsidian77 Sat 05-Nov-16 19:52:01

Sorry you're going through this op. Can you call the duty Social Worker, tell them exactly what he has said to you, and ask their advice?
flowers

JellyBelli Sat 05-Nov-16 19:52:38

flowers

Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 19:53:09

I have called out of hours SS (at 5pm) abd waiting for a callback. Not holding my breath!

Lunar1 Sat 05-Nov-16 19:59:02

I hope ss can help you, will you stop contact till court now?

Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 20:03:56

I think so Lunar. Will see what my solicitor says obviously. If he organises a contact centre, that's fine. But certainly no more unsupervised until there's a court order I think. He will just do this every time, I have no doubt about that.

honeysucklejasmine Sat 05-Nov-16 20:17:53

Oh, how stressful. It's just awful, how some men turn in to such egomaniacal twats when you split with them.

pipsqueak25 Sat 05-Nov-16 20:19:53

if he wants to mess about fight fire with fire, but don't get drawn into his stupid games, this sounds like a control thing rather than wanting extra time with ds, imo it was probably planned as a 'punishment' for the solicitors letter

Mummyoflittledragon Sat 05-Nov-16 20:28:18

It definitely sounds like planned revenge for the letter. Stay strong and don't let him win by engaging. Your poor ds being used as a pawn. Good luck with ss. flowers

PoldarksBreeches Sat 05-Nov-16 20:28:20

Really don't bother with out of hours social services! They are dealing with emergencies. This is not one. I get that it's awful and you absolutely should cease contact after this but social services can do nothing so don't bother them.

MummyToOneGirl Sat 05-Nov-16 20:34:57

Oh how awful for you. I was told that as my DD's dad is on the birth certificate and has equal parental responsibility, that he could in theory keep her at his house and not return her. However I was told that as I was the main carer, that I could immediately apply for a court order for him to return her to me. I think you need to speak to a solicitor first thing on Monday. I'm going through a court case at the moment with my ex trying to prevent me moving up north and it's a nightmare. I really feel for him, but as you are your child's main carer he absolutely must return him to you.

Skylander01 Sat 05-Nov-16 20:35:38

Cant you report him for kidnapping your child?

MummyToOneGirl Sat 05-Nov-16 20:36:06

I should have said 'I really feel for YOU' not 'him'!

Mummyamy123 Sat 05-Nov-16 20:36:25

Don't rise to it, don't text him going crazy tonight.
Screenshot his messages and email them to yourself just in case your phone breaks or anything.
Hope your DS is unaware he is being used as a pawn by his father, and is having a great adventure.
Call your solicitor on Monday, also call 111 and see if they can log it or anything.
Do not let him take your son again.
Best of luck in this horrible situation!

BratFarrarsPony Sat 05-Nov-16 20:37:02

" Cant you report him for kidnapping your child? "

not if he has parental responsibility, no.

Glowbug59 Sat 05-Nov-16 21:01:06

101 for police non emergency, not 111 X

MummyToOneGirl Sat 05-Nov-16 21:05:27

Unfortunately, if the Dad's name is on the birth certificate, he has equal parental responsibility and it may not be considered kidnapping. However, if the agreement is that your son is returned at 4pm on a Sat, then I definitely think it is worth contacting the Police. It will not look good for him when he goes to court. Do you have anything in writing on the current child arrangements?

PoldarksBreeches Sat 05-Nov-16 21:06:49

Don't cal the police either.
He has the right in the law to keep his son overnight unless you have a court order specifying contact. So get one.

MummyToOneGirl Sat 05-Nov-16 21:08:52

I disagree with Poldark. I still think it is worth contacting the Police if the agreement has always been that he returns your son by 4pm. At least then, you have it on record.

BratFarrarsPony Sat 05-Nov-16 21:10:08

no Mummy you are wrong , the police would not be interested.

onmybroomstick Sat 05-Nov-16 21:11:24

I too would have something on record. Hope you are ok flowers

PoldarksBreeches Sat 05-Nov-16 21:12:49

Honestly, there is no point. The police can do nothing, no crime is being committed.
'Logging it' is really not a thing the police do. When the op stops contact and the dad applies to court the op has text messages evidencing what the dad has done. No need to 'log' it with the overstretched police force or out of hours children's services.

mygorgeousmilo Sat 05-Nov-16 21:14:37

Agree with PP say very little, get him back tomorrow. Then get a court order and contact CMS as soon as is humanly possible. Clearly, this can't be one of those lovely and amicable situations that some people seem to have with ex DPs. No money is unacceptable. As punishment?! Unacceptable.

Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 21:14:42

Solicitor has advised to log anything like this with the police, get an incident number, even when there's nothing to be done.

This I think is partly to show the court that it is actually a concern and the impact of it rather than just the event iyswim.

Mooey89 Sat 05-Nov-16 21:15:51

Only just realised that my thread title makes no sense!

ohtheholidays Sat 05-Nov-16 21:34:29

If there's been DV OP I'd ring the SS again!

Do the Police know there has been DV before?If not I'd ring them back and let them know now.

What's he's done is really shady and I don't blame you for wanting to use a contact center in the future it sounds like thats the only way to go from now on.

NotAnotherUserName1234 Sat 05-Nov-16 21:36:36

is DS safe?

BoboBunnyH0p Sun 06-Nov-16 05:44:05

OP sorry your having to deal with this. Hopefully your DC is enjoying the adventure and is non the wiser. Agree with previous posters when he is returned tomorrow say nothing to ex. He is wanting a response he is trying to control you.

GizmoFrisby Sun 06-Nov-16 06:05:15

Hope your ok. I have been in this situation where I had to stop contact. Go to your solicitors first thing tomorrow to make an appointment. Explain the situation. She will tell you that you can legally stop contact. Due to the situation she will most likely write to him and explain what he's done is out of order. Do not let him out of your sight until court. Keep all your texts and write all the dates down. You will wipe the floor with him. I did with my ex.

ConvincingLiar Sun 06-Nov-16 06:58:45

Hope DS comes back at 6 today as promised.

VladimirsPooTin Sun 06-Nov-16 08:29:41

Is DS home now?sadflowers

frugalprincess Sun 06-Nov-16 08:34:08

Was it 6am or 6pm today that he said he'd return him?

What age is your DS?

Hope he's back soon

frugalprincess Sun 06-Nov-16 08:35:13

Sorry I've just seen he's 3 from
Your title

TheCatsMother99 Sun 06-Nov-16 08:38:00

What a b*st*rd.

Hope your ds was ok with his impromptu overnighter. I agree with others in that he can't be trusted with access if he's going to breach the conditions of it.

AyeAmarok Sun 06-Nov-16 08:39:56

I agree it's a reaction he wants, he gets to feel like a big man for dictating what's happening to you.

Don't react when he returns him this evening.

OohMavis Sun 06-Nov-16 08:41:23

Hope he's returned and everything is ok.

Stormwhale Sun 06-Nov-16 08:42:54

How absolutely awful for you. I would be distraught. I hope he is safely returned today and completely agree with advice to stop contact until you get a court order.

Mooey89 Sun 06-Nov-16 08:44:13

He's text me saying I can collect him at 11 today??

Stormwhale Sun 06-Nov-16 08:47:19

Collect him and do not say anything. Do not get into a conversation. Just collect ds and leave. Then email or text to say contact is stopping.

AyeAmarok Sun 06-Nov-16 08:55:17

Oh, harder work than he thought, is it...

Difficult one. I'd be tempted to say no, but that's probably not best for any of you.

Does he usually drop him back? Why does he want you to go to him?

GrumpyInsomniac Sun 06-Nov-16 08:56:01

Guess he's not getting the response he hoped for, so here's the next wind up. While it's tempting to suggest you say you now have plans and will see him at 6, and let him deal with it, given the circumstances I'd probably go and get your son at 11, relieved to have him back and safely away from the ex. That may not be the 'right' thing in terms of showing him he can't dictate to you, but I'd want my son back with me.

I'd be ready to take pictures of the condition my son was in, too, if he wasn't prepped for an overnight, to use as evidence when the court date comes. Either he premeditated and got stuff in specially, or did it on the spur of the moment and made no allowance for your son's material needs while he was there, but either way it's potentially useful to record which it is.

flowers op - your ex is a turd.

Eightiesmate Sun 06-Nov-16 08:58:27

Will you be safe to collect him? I'm a little concerned it may be a trap to get you go go somewhere where you'll be alone with him & DS. Hope you get him back safely soon, I'd be going out of my mind flowers

Mooey89 Sun 06-Nov-16 09:01:57

I'm taking DP with me to get him. No question that I wouldn't get him, and will definitely take pictures!

coconutpie Sun 06-Nov-16 09:02:24

Bring your DP with you for the collection to be safe. You must've been beside yourself with worry, hope your DS is ok.

Aeroflotgirl Sun 06-Nov-16 09:02:32

Arrange to meet in a public place

Mummyoflittledragon Sun 06-Nov-16 09:02:57

Go and get your ds with someone else for support if you can. And definitely tell someone where you are going if not. Do as stormwhale suggests and say nothing. Speak to your solicitor tomorrow and get contact stopped.

Mummyoflittledragon Sun 06-Nov-16 09:03:48

Great, good plan. I hope he's ok!!

2kids2dogsnosense Sun 06-Nov-16 09:03:49

Cant' help, but just wanted toady support.

Hopefully your DC will not be nearly as distressed as you re and your ex will make the effort to give him a lovely evening and a nice breakfast.

However whatever happens, he is not to be trusted and you are right to go to your solicitor.

And remember - until there is a court order in place, if your ex "doesn't have to bring him back" at the agreed time, then you don't have t let him go.

KarmaNoMore Sun 06-Nov-16 09:03:51

Go and get him as soon as you can and do not hand him over again until this incident has been dealt with and there are mechanisms in place to avoid it being repeated.

If he really has a history of abuse, this is not the time to play games, just get your child back ASAP to ensure he is safe.

LagunaBubbles Sun 06-Nov-16 09:05:30

Where have you to collect him from?

2kids2dogsnosense Sun 06-Nov-16 09:05:58

*to offer, not toady

GizmoFrisby Sun 06-Nov-16 09:08:42

Collect him and don't argue or anything. Be as calm as possible and try and act like it's ok. Then you can't start war once you have him home. Horrible situation OP. He sounds like an absolute twat. flowers

ChestyCoffin Sun 06-Nov-16 09:23:58

Agree collect him, don't argue or react, then speak to solicitor about stopping contact.

Hope DS is ok flowers

NightWanderer Sun 06-Nov-16 09:27:16

Guess things didn't go the way he expected. Good luck for the pick up. I hope you can keep your cool.

lightsandresistance Sun 06-Nov-16 09:46:09

Agree collect him calmly. Say nothing about him keeping him. Get your boy back then take action.

He's found a three year old is hard work 😉

Ohb0llocks Sun 06-Nov-16 09:56:45

Hope DS is ok. For what it's worth I think you are handling this amazingly. I would have probably spent the entire night having panic attack after panic attack.

Trunkisareshite Sun 06-Nov-16 10:16:47

Have your phone on record in your pocket when you get him. Good luck.

QueenLizIII Sun 06-Nov-16 10:38:37

Covert surveillance will add what? He isnt going to deny keeping him overnight is he?

GizmoFrisby Sun 06-Nov-16 10:41:21

Queen- incase he says anything abusive, incase he is nasty? OP has already said there has been dv in relationship.
You haven't helped op you are just slating pp advise. Unless you have been in a situation like this you don't know. If you haven't got anything helpful to say.... maybe just don't comment. OP is obviously having a hard time.

QueenLizIII Sun 06-Nov-16 10:53:05

www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed160225

may not help....from this article:

What do the courts make of covert recording?
Court attitudes vary enormously. Some judges will immediately baulk at the idea of introducing covert recordings into a case and object strongly to the making of the recording in the first place. One judge 'instinctively' felt that it was wrong.

Non lawyers really think it is just that simple to record evidence. But it isnt that simple.

QueenLizIII Sun 06-Nov-16 10:56:57

You haven't helped op you are just slating pp advise. Unless you have been in a situation like this you don't know. If you haven't got anything helpful to say.... maybe just don't comment. OP is obviously having a hard time.

Gizmo you havent read the thread VERY clearly. I told her earlier get a court order for contact with a penal notie attached which means he will be arrested if he breaches the order. That isnt helpful advice is it?

I AM a solicitor Gizmo and I trust you are not by your comments. I've been through this countless times. Recording secretly: well good luck getting it admitted in court. It just isnt that simple.

You are all the ones giving her advice that is not that helpful.

Ive been constructive and told her to get a penal notice with any contact order.

Ok Im out now. Continue telling her to record conversations as oh so helpful advice hmm

QueenLizIII Sun 06-Nov-16 10:57:34

*Penal notice

GizmoFrisby Sun 06-Nov-16 11:10:26

I never told her to record that was a pp. You may be a solicitor but I couldn't give 2 shits. I told her to collect dc calmly if you re read. Being a solicitor and that!

QueenLizIII Sun 06-Nov-16 11:11:01

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GizmoFrisby Sun 06-Nov-16 11:14:31

Hope you don't speak like that at work Queen grin

BoboBunnyH0p Sun 06-Nov-16 11:39:58

OP have you collected you DC? Are they OK?

JenLindleyShitMom Sun 06-Nov-16 11:43:15

I would record fully in the knowledge that it may be of no use at all. I would just want to cover all bases where possible. You just never know what could happen. If he got violent then there is more than just her DPs word about what happened.

Mummyoflittledragon Sun 06-Nov-16 12:05:54

Did you manage to pick your ds up? Is he ok op?

Mooey89 Sun 06-Nov-16 12:44:41

He's back. No recordings here - I know from work, they are not admissible in court.

He's back, safe. Filthy dirty, but he's back.

LottieDoubtie Sun 06-Nov-16 12:57:17

Glad you've got him OP. Take pictures and record everything you can properly now and get straight into the solicitor tomorrow.

Mummyoflittledragon Sun 06-Nov-16 13:07:32

Glad he's safe. Good luck blocking contact visits.

BoboBunnyH0p Sun 06-Nov-16 13:09:13

Pleased to hear he is safe.

rainbowstardrops Sun 06-Nov-16 13:32:46

Blimey what an arsehole!
Clearly looking after a theee year old was harder than he thought it would be!
I agree with most other people - stop contact until you've been to court.

Lunar1 Sun 06-Nov-16 13:36:15

So relieved you have him back. Did he say anything about the situation?

coconutpie Sun 06-Nov-16 13:59:47

Glad to hear he's safe but he's filthy dirty?! How?! Take pics as evidence. How is he? Was he upset at being away unexpectedly? Poor little guy sad

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