To worry that under Mrs may plans some children will have no school place

[ReallyTired]

In my town there is a huge pressure on school places at primary level. In a few years time secondary schools will have the same problem. I suspect that most comps will become selective to avoid becoming the secondary modern.

It it really fair that the low ablity pupils might be forced to travel long distances to crap schools? Why are low ablity children less deserving of a good school?

This hasn't been thought out.

[yodaonthebars]

I feel the same. We have two outstanding academies and a faith school locally. All very oversubscribed.

From what I can understand the academies would be encouraged to turn into Selective and the faith schools become even more faith selective.

Kids like mine would end up in a crappy school nearby but still several miles which no one wants. There's no buses out of our area in a morning so a long walk to nearest town and then bus.

My dc would never have passed 11 + but are capable of Bs and Cs. I'm glad the youngest is already mid secondary!

[OwlinaTree]

It does seem at present like the children most in need of a good school place seem to be the children least likely to get one. I can't see how any proposed changes are going to change this for the better.

[ReallyTired]

A lots of working class primaries have more than their fair share of Sen children.my daughter's class is a lot calmer now that one boy has been permanently excluded after creating three years of hell and another child has been transferred to special school. There is one little girl who cannot write inspite of being in year 3. Her mother desperately wants her transferred to the special school.

Prior to the 1980s there were too many children in special schools. I think inclusion has gone too far or at least we need to make sure that no class is overloaded with Sen children. If s teacher has to manage 3 TAs then the children get less attention from a qualified teacher. In affect the TAs become the teachers.

Inclusion may give a better outcome for the sen child, but is this at the expense of the rest of the class? Is three any way that this can be mitigated without going back to special schools? Do we need more units within mainstream primaries?

[Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost]

YDNBU. I hate all the emphasis and pressure that children have to be academic.
Not all children like adults are academic. I wasn't, but Ive turned out fine.
I think she's gone back into the 80s.
I mean what's next to knock their (children's) confidence? The dunces hat and class places.

[Iliveinalighthousewiththeghost]

Also there's no such thing IMO as low ability
Some children are good academically.
Some at sport
Some at art
Some at social skills
Some are great hands on.
The list is endless. Every child has something to offer

[SingaSong12]

YANBU. I don't think they have really thought through whether any schools will want to be the secondary modern. I know the government are saying this will not be the same as the old secondary moderns, but practically if only 20% of children will go to grammar school they will have to encourage many schools to remain non-selective. academies have a lot more freedom with the admission criteria.

[RealityCheque]

Also there's no such thing IMO as low ability

Have you not seen the Jeremy Kyle show?

[Rockpebblestone]

Prior to the 1980s there were too many children in special schools. I think inclusion has gone too far or at least we need to make sure that no class is overloaded with Sen children. If s teacher has to manage 3 TAs then the children get less attention from a qualified teacher. In affect the TAs become the teachers.

Inclusion may give a better outcome for the sen child, but is this at the expense of the rest of the class? Is three any way that this can be mitigated without going back to special schools? Do we need more units within mainstream primaries?

Really, I think you vastly understand a great proportion of additional needs. A lot of additional needs only impact the learning of the child who has those needs. Added to this additional needs which might cause disruptive behaviours only do so when those needs are totally inadequately catered for which not surprisingly causes distress.

A single teacher does not have to manage TAs on their own, there is a SLT and most usually a SENCO in addition to help with this.

SEN children do not 'overload' a class. They provide a valid contribution. Not least, in that they show the amount of totally normal diversity there is within society. Why should they have to be hidden away? That would be a providing a false experience for all the other children, effectively segregating society.

[noblegiraffe]

Please consider responding to the Green Paper consultation with your concerns: consult.education.gov.uk/school-frameworks/schools-that-work-for-everyone/supporting_documents/SCHOOLS%20THAT%20WORK%20FOR%20EVERYONE%20%20FINAL.pdf

[elliejjtiny]

TBH I don't think inclusion benefits a lot of children who have SN either. My DC have SN not severe enough for special school these days, although in the past at least 3 of my 5 would have gone. Instead they are left to sink or swim in mainstream, sometimes with teachers who would rather they were in special school.

[ReallyTired]

"Totally disagree with you about Sen pupils disadvantaging the class and can't see what that has to do with this argument. The teacher doesn't manage the TAs, the TAs manage and help the pupil they are assigned to, as far as I can see from the way Ds school works. Why would having more TAs make them effectively the teacher? That makes no sense."

The teacher plans the lesson. The TAs are a resource and the TAs follow the direction of the teacher. Otherwise unqualified people would be doing the job of a teacher. A head teacher does not micro manage every lesson in a school. it used to be that the proportion of children who were statement end was about 1 to 2%. My daughter's had three such children.

There are children who cannot cope with being in a class if 30. These children are often more concentrated in area of poverty because having a child with a disablity makes it harder to earn a good living.

Ill thought out inclusion hurts both working class primaries ansd secondaries. Over subscribed faith school or over subscribed school in wealthy area have less Sen children. Your sink comprehensive often doesn't have the resources to support all the children with learning difficulties. This leads to frustration so no one is able to learn.

I believe that the policy of inclusion at any cost is why some comprehensives are so dire.

[mumtomaxwell]

YANBU
As a secondary school teacher I am 100% against this whole idea. Year after year I have students who suddenly grow up and blossom into amazingly talented students. Ones who, lower down the school, were total PITA but then as they approach their GCSEs or even A levels they suddenly grow up.
Testing and sorting children at 11 was unfair when it was originally introduced in the 1944 legislation, and is still unfair now. I hate this ridiculous govt with their obsession with undoing all the progress made since WW2!!! Not just in education but in all areas of society.

[mumtomaxwell]

Can I just make it clear I don't think SEN children are PITA!!!!!! It's nearly 2 am and I pressed post on my anti-govt rant without properly reading it through!!

[ReallyTired]

Poorly planned inclusion is a pita. The children with severe SEN are victims. A child who exhibits extreme behaviour is often under terrible stress. A boy in Dd's class threw a chair at a teacher. He was only permamentally excluded after attempting to strangle another child. He has been moved to another mainstream primary in a low income area because it has spaces.

I think the policy of putting permamentally excluded children into schools where there are spaces means that sink/ struggling schools end up with a high number of challenging children. The class becomes unteachable.

Grammar schools will exasabate this problem.

[yodaonthebars]

As I wrote above I agree with your grammar school comments but I just want to point out sen doesn't mean low ability nor disruptive.

I know plenty very bright sen children who would ace a grammar school test who are on the AS spectrum.

My own sen child is on target for bs and Cs so wouldn't but they certainly aren't disruptive. In fact the class teacher of a subject joked the other day he was going to chuck the rest of the kids out of the class and just keep dc as they listened and tried harder than anyone despite struggling and mine is the child who gets incredibly annoyed at the 'NT' kids disrupting lessons.

Of the six expelled from the school I taught in last year only one had sen.

So I don't want this to turn into average kids being let down by grammars because of having to be with sen kids.

I DO agree that schools taking kids who have been expelled multiple times is crazy. Dcs old school had one who had been expelled from three schools for attacking teachers. I think there should be more schools available for those children who need specialist support.

I also do agree that a lot of the schools around here for children with milder sen support needs shouldn't have shut.

My dc2 managed in mainstream primary but given the option I would have chosen one of the sen schools for minor needs which used to exist where I lived as I feel they would have been able to offer her the emotional and social help she needed and didn't get.

[Rockpebblestone]

it used to be that the proportion of children who were statement end was about 1 to 2%. My daughter's had three such children.

This is probably due to the greater awareness of types of additional need that exist and also the greater amount of testing that occurs at an earlier age meaning additional needs are picked up.

The greater number of children with these 'additional' needs also shows how these type of needs are really not that 'special', they are in fact pretty mainstream in society.....

Perhaps mainstream schools really ought to start catering for this significant proportion of children's educational needs, as a matter of course, instead of bemoaning the fact any degree of differentiation, from catering to a pretty narrow median band of educational needs, is necessary?

[Rockpebblestone]

^it should have said 'misunderstand' not 'understand' in my very first post. Typo, it was getting late!

[Rockpebblestone]

^it should have said 'misunderstand' not 'understand' in my very first post. Typo, it was getting late!

[maddening]

So you don't want selective schools as they may exclude your dc but you want. To exclude more dc with SEN?

[frozenpink]

It's divisive and it is a funding issue. Really, children who are struggling academically should have the very best support available. But there isn't the time or resources. They are unlikely to make the school look good results wise, either. This is treating children like products.

[Rockpebblestone]

It's divisive and it is a funding issue. Really, children who are struggling academically should have the very best support available. But there isn't the time or resources. They are unlikely to make the school look good results wise, either. This is treating children like products.

Many children who have additional needs are academically able. This is not purely a funding issue either. It is a problem concerning attitudes. When my DC had a Statement of SEN, with significant funding, the greatest barrier to learning was the attitudes of those teachers, who didn't think they should have to make provision for SENs. They effectively left my child to be taught by TAs. This was when there was plentiful monetary funding. Thankfully my child was able enough to still progress well enough to get the Statement ceased, so this could no longer occur. Not surprisingly, this was when my child's academic achievements began to get properly acknowledged.

[kilmuir]

Your knowledge of 'SeN' pupils is laughable.
They are not all the same!!! My DS is classed as SEN as he is dyslexic. He is not disruptive, does not take up more of teachers time than others, is not stupid etc.
Kids can be disruptive and not be SEN you know

[frozenpink]

I wasn't talking about SEN. I was talking about children struggling academically - the ones who won't make it through the 11-plus.

[Rockpebblestone]

frozen apologies. However the ones not passing the 11plus are not necessarily struggling academically either. The ones not passing the 11plus are often the vast majority of children in some areas of the country. There is often huge competition for grammar schools, the ones that get in often come from private Prep schools and are coached towards the test.