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To feel not enough people in this country understand democracy?

(30 Posts)
Inyournightdress Sat 25-Jun-16 15:47:15

This is a post about both sides of the debate because frankly I think people from both sides have displayed appallingly.

I voted remain and I'm crushed. However this petition going around now is rediculous. You can't enact something after a referendum and apply it retrospectively. The law doesn't work that way. Democracy has spoken, we will leave.

But also why do so many leavers think that 'remainders should stop complaining because of democracy'. Umm democracy doesn't mean that you can't be disasatisfied with the outcome and vocalise it. I didn't realise we no longer had freedom of speech as wel???

My dd's aunt had just told her on Facebook that she's 'too young to understand the eu so shouldn't have voted' after complaining about remainders being upset and saying they should accept democracy. Telling my daughter that doesn't seem very democratic.

And all the stuff about xxx shouldn't have a vote because they are too xxx. It's frankly bloody disgraceful from both sides.

scaryteacher Sat 25-Jun-16 17:26:23

I think the remainers, when they thought they were going to win, had been posting about 'the people have spoken' get on with it', and then when the vote didn't go their way, are making very different noises. Had the result been the other way around, then campaigns to reform the EU would have gone on, but I don't think you would have seen this level of vitriol and sheer nastiness.

MassiveStrumpet Sat 25-Jun-16 17:34:52

I don't think democracy has to be down to a direct vote by the populace on any given issue. There's a good reason for a representative democracy as it prevents sudden, disruptive moves based on emotions.

No do I think a simple majority should always be the determination. For something so drastic as Brexit, perhaps a higher bar should have been set.

Glamourgates Sat 25-Jun-16 17:36:46

The right to start a petition about anything is also democracy.

Ruinedbyrain Sat 25-Jun-16 17:46:22

A prerequisite for democracy is equality. In my opinion we don't have that in this country due to the class system, just look at education, the haves either pay or live in desirable schools' catchment areas, the have nots are left with the rest. (I work with the have nots so see this every day). Education is key in making an informed choice rather than relying on the populist press. So no, sadly we don't have a democracy here.

wowfudge Sat 25-Jun-16 17:48:32

This is a huge, life-changing, multi-generation impacting decision and there's no going back from leaving the EU. The campaigning, particularly by Brexit, was disgracefully short on truth. Instead it appealed to people's fears and their prejudices about the EU. The bar should have been higher in terms of margin because of the magnitude of a decision to leave. The repercussions will be felt for decades to come. It will cost a fortune too.

I have read so much about people who regret voting out and those who didn't think their vote would have an impact. Those are the people who, imo, don't understand what democracy means. If you don't really want something then don't vote for it.

Tartsamazeballs Sat 25-Jun-16 17:59:25

It's a really difficult issue.

1. It appears that not everyone who voted knew what they were voting for, for two reasonss: There have been lies on both sides and It wasn't until Cameron resigned that some people realised how serious this is.

2. The vote was insanely close. 72.2% turnout with less than 2% in it. That's fucking insane. Either way, you've got approximately half a country living in a country they didn't vote for.

I think in hindsight it was handled really badly by all involved, and having had an unexpected result, it will lead to confusion and disarray.

That1950sMum Sat 25-Jun-16 18:01:40

Petitions are an important part of democracy because they allow people's voices to be heard.

I have signed the petition not because I think it will actually lead to a new referendum, but because it means it will have to be discussed in parliament. It also shows the rest of the world that the British are not all unthinking, gullible xenophobes and that many of us are so appalled by what has happened that we want to stand up and be counted.

EveOnline2016 Sat 25-Jun-16 18:05:39

If the people want a 2nd vote then those voices should be heard as well even if it just leads to it being discussed in parliament.

I wouldn't change my vote but perhaps some people will.

Inyournightdress Sat 25-Jun-16 18:06:20

It won't be properly discussed in parliament though. It will be announced and then they will say there is nothing we can do because the British people have spoken.

When I signed the petition about the Syrian air strikes, the response we got back from parliament is that it wouldn't be discussed because the issue had been discussed at length during the MPs vote. I feel this petition will be very much the same.

BillSykesDog Sat 25-Jun-16 18:06:48

There was 4% in it, not less than two.

Justanotherlurker Sat 25-Jun-16 18:06:50

I think it was obvious when petitions was created the day after the last GE, it's just another form of slactavism, people sign stuff and think they have done there bit, the campaign has been horrible from both sides and as a remain voter I'm getting pretty sick of some of the vitrol shown by my side. It was the same after the general election, so many opposing voices where silenced in general that social media once again became an echo chamber, the same tactics are now being used by generally the same people who tried to pick apart the last GE and thinking that signing a petition will hold any weight because they generally sign anything and everything that gets circulated via there rage circles.

beenaroundawhile Sat 25-Jun-16 18:09:09

I have two concerns on this question.

1) the point of the petition is not sour grapes because remain lost, it's because the margin by which one of the biggest events in modern British history has been decided is so small. It could be argued that the voters who made up this number either did so on the basis of misrepresentation and misinformation, or without full understanding of the consequences or responsibility which had been bestowed upon them. This could be the fault of the campaigns and their leadership, it could be ignorance on the part of the voters. Either way, it is hardly convincing and is too close to force such a change. Thr point of the petition is that the outcome should be decided by a bigger majority (60% with 75% turnout).

2) if rhe U.K. Should just accept the results of the referendum as stands and move on, why shouldn't the same principle apply to Scotland? NS and AS have always wanted another referendum and never really accepted the outcome of the first, they were just biding their time. Scotland voted IN the UK, they entered the EU referendum as equals, so they should surely be required to accept their own vote in the same way as we are being told to

Inyournightdress Sat 25-Jun-16 18:12:11

Beenawhile absolutely about the small margin, and if this petition had been going around a few weeks before the vote I would have signed it to prevent this situation happening. However you can't apply a law to a vote after the vote has happened.

quasibex Sat 25-Jun-16 18:16:17

I do understand democracy. I also understand that a referendum whilst an indication of the will of the people is not legally binding and the government have the last say.

I signed the petition to add weight to the voices in parliament that agree this will be a disaster for our country in the hope that something can be salvaged from this although I fear it's already too late by the language coming from the EU.

People on here are talking about the way remain voters are complaining and how pathetic it is.

I'm furious with the result because I know that had people bothered to look into the facts of leaving they would have seen that border control cannot alter much at all and the concept of £350 million a week actually going to the communities/areas of importance (NHS) that need it was never going to happen.

It's a referendum won on a bed of lies and hatred and for that my children will have to pay the price.

To say my reaction implies I don't understand democracy is more insulting than the disgusting statements being put about by smug leave voters since yesterday morning.

IndridCold Sat 25-Jun-16 18:17:08

'Twas ever thus!

Inyournightdress Sat 25-Jun-16 18:18:30

Quasibex and as I said in my original post, I too am sick of leave voters remaking on how remainers shouldn't be complaining.

BreconBeBuggered Sat 25-Jun-16 18:40:27

I too think the petition is ridiculous. I still signed it, knowing it was pissing in the wind but feeling I wanted to add my voice to the general dismay. I've never felt this about any other election, and I've voted on the losing side most of my life. I'm astonished at the naivete of the Leave voters who think the result ought to be the end of the discussion. That's not how democracy works. We all have to live with the consequences of the electorate's decision. Those on the wrong side don't go off for an extended fag-break while the winners carve things up amongst themselves.

HubrisComicGhoul Sat 25-Jun-16 20:04:32

There is an argument to be made that we aren't really a democracy anyway.

We have an election where the most convincing liars are elected, they then have NO obligation to act on their lies and we cannot vote them out for 5 years.

If there was any way to hold them to account for election promises I would accept that we are a democracy, but as it stands, what we really have is an elected dictatorship.

Democracy is us having a say in the decisions that get made, not just who makes those decisions.

oldlaundbooth Sat 25-Jun-16 20:07:18

Couldn't agree more.

An older person's vote is worth as much as a younger person's vote : that's democracy.

A person who lives on a council estate's vote is worth as much as landed gentry : that's democracy.

Seems like lots of people think otherwise!

Babysafari Sat 25-Jun-16 20:13:42

I agree re democracy but my only conclusion on this is that this shouldn't have been put into the publics hands.

We elect a government to make these decisions on our behalf.

It's clear that so many people didn't have the first clue what they were voting for.

SouperSal Sat 25-Jun-16 20:16:00

I don't think we will leave. The people we democratically elect to act on our behalf may decide it's not in our best interests.

SouperSal Sat 25-Jun-16 20:16:35

Yes yes hubris

Babysafari Sat 25-Jun-16 20:17:25

Also agree with a pp that we don't have a true democracy, arguably.

The Royals aren't elected, neither are the House of Lords.

The system means that my vote is wasted as we are a safe seat.

Leaders of party's tell bare faced lies and are completely unaccountable afterwards.

Peppatina Sat 25-Jun-16 20:21:16

Everyone loves democracy.

Until they lose an argument they REALLY wanted to win.

Some people, when it comes right down to it, just can't accept that others have a right to think differently to them.

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