AIBU to ask why if you wanted to make a protest

[FoggyBottom]

against big business, and for the "littke people" why you didn't vote in the General Election to get rid of the weak Tory Eton boys?

Instead of leading us into a catastrophic economic situation of being outside our natural alliance with the nations who are our neighbours.

And to my fellow Cornish people - be prepared for penury. Do you KNOW how much our current infrastructure and development is funded by EU funding? Around 86% of recent development funds are from the EU.

Fuckers.

[FoggyBottom]

Would you like to censor discussion? Are you not in favour of free speech?

[anyname123]

Free speech is exactly what has happened. There has been a democratic vote, the vote didn't go your way.

[TheDuchessOfArbroathsHat]

why you didn't vote in the General Election to get rid of the weak Tory Eton boys?

Have you just heard Corbyn on Radio 4? No. I guess not.

[FoggyBottom]

There has been a democratic vote, the vote didn't go your way.

A lot of people have posted on a lot of other threads that they voted Leave because they wanted to make a protest against the current government and its policies.

They could have got rid of this government at the last election, so why not do that then, not make the EU decision a national vote against the government. It's more important than that.

[purits]

A lot of people have posted on a lot of other threads that they voted Leave because they wanted to make a protest against the current government and its policies.

Oh, is that right? I thought they voted Leave because they were racists. Or stupid. Or is there some other insult that I have missed?

[branofthemist]

So are you saying people who didn't vote in the GE voted leave in this referendum?

Surely that's only true in some cases. Not all or most.

As a remainer, I don't get it.

In the GE so many complained that the rich toffs who hated the poor won. Now people are complaining that the working class uneducated won.

(Working class uneducated isn't my opinion, it's beef said by many on many threads here)

[FoggyBottom]

So are you saying people who didn't vote in the GE voted leave in this referendum?

I'm actually asking, not saying ...

In the GE so many complained that the rich toffs who hated the poor won. Now people are complaining that the working class uneducated won.

What I don't understand is if the "white working class" feels so overlooked why make the EU referendum the vehicle for expressing that? Why not change our national government?

I think that the working class of this country has been fed to the lions, but that it's little to do with the EU. It's about globalisation, and neo-liberal economic ideologues. That all started with Thatcher and Reagan, back in the 80s.

We've all benefited from globalisation (cheap food, cheap transport, cheap imports, international mobility). THere's mobility for the affluent, the educated, and the professionals - my undergrads look at the world as their working field.

But yes, the "old" white working class have lost in this. But not because of the EU, or "immigrants" - the unskilled working class is the fodder of globalisation.

However, the way to deal with that is through a General Election, not leaving the natural alliance of the UK with our neighbours n the rest of Europe.

[eyebrowse]

The general election result was due to

1. Ed Miliband not being seen as leadership material
   
   
2. Labour were not trusted on the economy and the economy had eventually started to improve
   
   
3. people were upset by the Scottish referendum and were scared of nicola sturgeon (I've never understood why)
   
   
4. People wanted a chance to have a say about immigration (re the referendum)
   
   
5. The polls got it so wrong that labour voters were not worried (labour policies were so much better they seemed the obvious choice)
   
   
6. the lib dem vote collapsed due to tuition fees
   
   7)people did not realise that the policies of e.g. 30 hours free child care and selling housing association housing to tenants were uncosted
   
   
7. David Cameron said tax credits (for those in work) would remain untouched - this was completely untrue as universal credit appears to abolish them

[branofthemist]

I'm actually asking, not saying ...

But why put those two things together. Many, if not most, will have voted in both.

[meditrina]

You're making a big assumption about voters' motivation.

What do you base that on?

[FoggyBottom]

You're making a big assumption about voters' motivation.

I'm reading the thread asking people to explain why they voted Leave. I'm finding it very interesting. There are a number of posters - quite a number - on that thread saying they voted Leave in protest against current national conditions, in protest against big government, and big business.

It seems to me that those are national issues, rather than EU issues. And that if voters felt so strongly about them, they could have voted to oust the Tories/current government at the last General Election.

The other thing I'm reading on that thread is a disturbing level of xenophobia & some outright racism.

I love this country - we are better than the Little Englander "Get Johnny foreigner out of my face" attitude. Far far better than that.


Also - I genuinely would like to know - why wasn't the choice available to those living in NI? worried I've been ignorant of this

[slamdunkthefunk]

You are right Foggy, I think there is a high level of lack of understanding on what they were actually voting for. #notallleavevoters. But enough to push the vote over the winning 50% line.

[slamdunkthefunk]

Plus a fair bit of the xenophobic comments have been aimed at NON-EU immigrants, such as those from India and Pakistan (in my local area). Which is laughable and shows astonishing ignorance.

[FoggyBottom]

Plus a fair bit of the xenophobic comments have been aimed at NON-EU immigrants, such as those from India and Pakistan

People applying from the Indian sub-continent to migrate to Britain would likely still be admitted under a points system, as in the US & Australia. India, for example, has the world's largest middle-class, all highly trained in priority areas.

I do understand (as far as I can) the concerns people have. People around me are in industries/occupations where the fear of being undercut or replaced by cheaper labour is ever-present.

But this is not a consequence of the EU. It would happen anyway. It's a consequence of globalisation.

[slamdunkthefunk]

Absolutely.
With modern ways of travelling, movement of people is inevitable. It is the future. We can't just opt out of that.

[TooMuchMNTime]

Foggy, I don't get your point
Working class didn't have anyone standing up for them at the election? Where were the options? I won't say white but rather British born working class. Who was standing up for us? At least the Conservatives promised the referendum...

[FoggyBottom]

Working class didn't have anyone standing up for them at the election? Where were the options?

I agree in that the Labour Party has moved to the right in order to get elected. But you know, there were a helluva lot of "traditional working class" who had been traditional Labour voters voting for Thatcher & Major. They signed their own death warrants by voting for the neo-liberals, of course.

I had hoped that a Corbyn-led Labour Party would start to take back some of that constituency. Sadly, not.

[TooMuchMNTime]

Foggy, I hoped so too
, but is that partly because he was Remain?

[FoggyBottom]

Actually, something doing the rounds of Twitter says that:

70% Lab voters went WITH Corbyn. 56% Tory voters went AGAINST Cameron.

But the press narrative is a swing against Labour.

Go figure ...

[TooMuchMNTime]

I'm not sure what your point is again, the press are saying all sorts
How do they know who voted which way?

I see your points on globalisation but the EU is part of that
And what can we do to fight globalisation?
You say everyone benefits from cheap food and cheap travel
Food, well the food producers don't ..and if wages hadn't been so low we might not need the cheap food

Where is this cheap travel? If you mean across Europe how many of us doing low paid jobs care about this? I can't boo hoo over Tarquin going to pay more for uni

I think this is the first time the working people have been heard for a long time
I think a lot of the rhetoric on here and other social media is labelling us as fools
No wonder the results have shocked people, I have to keep quiet as I'm thick or a racist.

Chuku Ummuna made some excellent points yesterday about thinking what the economy means for ordinary people

Do I care about the one per cent that get to travel loads? Of course not. It's trickle down all over again, do I want an extra seven pence an hour because of that trickle down or fewer people in the country? No fucking contest.

Do I want more disposable income to buy bread and circuses distracting tat with? No. Do I want house prices to go down? Of course I do. You need a huge amount of money to want them to go up.

And people boo hooing over the cost of citizenship, find me another country mad enough to take you without even the money to cover that!

As long as we are constantly told to shut up no one will hear us.
And in case anyone hasn't met me ranting before, I nearly didn't vote yesterday because I've voted myself out of a job. But in the end my ,long term future was more important than one job when the whole EU experiment could have collapsed anyway.