Your thoughts please - for the sake of interest(92 Posts)
Following on from the "mumtitlement" thread, I wonder what your views are on this, which happened in my office a year ago.
Work team where no more than two people are allowed to have leave at the same time, to provide cover.
Eight months in advance, childless female books a certain Thursday and Friday off. This is approved by the manager.
Two weeks in advance, childless devout Muslim female requests the Thursday off as it is Eid. She could not book the actual day any earlier because the actual date had not been declared.
On the same day, mother of two under 10's asks for the Thursday off on the grounds that her children's school has announced it will be closed for the day as over 50% of children (and a fair number of staff) will be celebrating Eid and whatever is done that day will need to be repeated.
Who gets the day off, and who doesn't?
Whoever asks first gets the time off imo.
First come first served.
In my last job a lot of staff were Muslim and they couldn't all have eid off. And as you say, the date isn't confirmed til near the time. So other people have already booked it off.
It was a case off first come first served if there was any leave left. Same for parents.
Definitely first come first served otherwise the managers are in the position of trying to decide who "deserves" it more and that is just not fair.
I am surprised that you even bring the "childless female" in to the equation. You don't seriously suppose it would be right for anyone to say to someone who had booked leave 8 months in advance "Sorry you can't have that day after all because someone's need is greater than yours"
The childless female was asked "if she had anything special planned", but was not directly asked to cancel her leave.
The other two asked on the same day.
The people who booked it first.
Slightly confused over the 'couldn't book Eid off earlier because the date hadn't been declared' but the school and the other colleague were announcing it two weeks beforehand.
I get that it's lunar, and that in some countries (including one in the ME where I lived for a while) local custom meant it did actually come down to a committee on a roof somewhere getting an actual sighting of the actual new moon and requiring certain climatic conditions to do so, so the official declaration of Eid is pretty last minute. But I thought that in the UK, it was enough that the new moon was technically visible, so the date was established well in advance? What's with the two-week thing from both the other colleague and the school? Maybe some Muslim Mumsnetters coule elucidate. Is there a central declaration of Eid for UK Muslims a fortnight beforehand?
Another vote for whoever booked it first. Obviously if the people can work it out between themselves that's great but no pressure or judgement should be put on anyone to change because something else has come up.
I think it should go to whoever asked first on the day if they both asked on the same day. Not sure it is fair to either as one may have been detained so couldn't ask first but that is the luck of the draw. If both asked at the same time maybe draw straws so neither has to choose to sacrifice their right to the holiday and needs are equal
whoever booked it first. If the 'childless female' knew eight months in advance that she needed to be out of the office those two specific days then yes, I'd say she 'had something special planned'.
First come first served.
As a 'childless female' (would it make any difference if they were male?) myself I get very pissed off that my requests are seen to be of lesser value than parent's
First come first served, and encourage people to compromise where they can.
Childless female may have been given a hospital date. Being able to book something 8 months in advance is a bid deal, not something you do randomly.
Childless woman first, the Muslim woman. Mother can get someone else to mind children, but Muslim woman can't get someone else to celebrate Eid for her!
Well - is there a policy about how leave is booked and whether there are any ways people can ensure they have specific dates? Other than no more than two people at once?
One place I worked we had an agreement that people who celebrated Eid would get priority, even if they booked late and managers would try to accommodate them.
One place we weren't allowed to book more than 6m in advance anyway.
Generally it is first come, first allowed. BUT, it is perfectly reasonable for one of the two new bookers to ask if the other has anything special planned and whether she might swap - as long as she has the right to say she won't swap.
The fact she booked it 8m in advance probably means she does have something special in mind.
Legally an employer can only refuse/cancel (statutory) leave for 'operational reasons' - those being to do with the business, not to do with other people who want leave. Though they could probably manage to dress it up that way!
First come first served in my opinion.
So who's leave was granted OP?
I'm an office manager who deals with holiday requests. If it were my staff, it would be first come first served.
Agree with you Pipbin. I am self employed now but had some horrible woman telling me I was ruining her children's Christmas by depriving them of their mum in Christmas Day. Never mind I'd worked the previous two Christmases depriving my husband, nephews and nieces, sisters, brothers in law and mother of a full family Christmas.
I have never heard a man referred to as "childless". I absolutely hate the word. Child free or without children is better.
The lady that asked first.
Why was she asked if she had anything special planned ?
None of their business and if she booked 8 months in advance it's hardly on a whim.
Childless woman as she booked first.
Other two women booked at the same time. Personally I would
Be inclined towards the woman with children. Childcare is always a pain and arranging it last minute like that is doubly so. It isn't as if she could have planned for it. Frankly annoyed at the school they should have made it a fun day for the children not celebrating Eid and did something instead.
Childless Muslim woman - I know Eid is very special but it is every year as well. And a lot of Muslims ha e to work on that day.
Whoever asked first should get it. Though I think it's fair enough to ask if others still need the specific date with regards to celebrating eid, though without any pressure to swap. With work patterns like this Muslims could potentially never have their religious festival off work. We always had a look at the rota to see what could be done for Muslim staff over eid, and likewise they would cover as much as possible over Christmas.
*Other two women booked at the same time. Personally I would
Be inclined towards the woman with children. Childcare is always a pain and arranging it last minute like that is doubly so. It isn't as if she could have planned for it.*
You're making a value judgement that children are more important than a (in your own words) very special religious holiday. I don't think that's fair. If they booked at the same time and can't work it out it should be a coin toss.
"Mother can get someone else to mind children, but Muslim woman can't get someone else to celebrate Eid for her!"
I disagree with this sweeping statement. Wanting to celebrate a special day is quite different from needing to care for little ones that cannot care for themselves. Many people cannot just get someone to mind their children when schools close. Obviously the welfare of kids should come above what we as adults would like to do.
In this instance, I do think that the lady that booked the time off first should take priority but the employer might have to accept that there will be kids in the workplace for the day if the women cannot get childcare.
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