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AIBU to ask if Lord Owen is right about TTIP?

(1000 Posts)
SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 16:33:30

Is former Labour Minister and SDP politician, Lord David Owen right to think that TTIP will be detrimental to the NHS?

WhereYouLeftIt Wed 06-Apr-16 16:43:49

Yes, I think he is right.

From that Guardian article: "US companies will be able to sue governments for pursuing policies that harm their business."

Fucking stupid idea.

scarlets Wed 06-Apr-16 16:48:05

I respect Lord Owen so my default reaction is, "I concur with him!' Lol

I am sure that there is an argument against his view, though. This will be an interesting and informative thread. I wonder what NHS workers make of it.

Jonathonseagull Wed 06-Apr-16 19:20:01

Yes, he's right. Absolute no brainer. Of course staying in the EU will bring about the ultimate demise of the NHS. and many other institutions as well.

HelpfulChap Wed 06-Apr-16 19:25:32


He is absolutely correct

Jonathonseagull Wed 06-Apr-16 19:53:47

What's your take on it Springing?

VertigoNun Wed 06-Apr-16 19:58:28


PortiaCastis Wed 06-Apr-16 19:58:54

YANBU Lord Owen is spot on

SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 20:39:08

I'm surprised that someone who actually resigned from the Labour Party because Labour were anti-EU at the time, has had such a total conversion

I applaud him for his honesty and for admitting he was wrong.

Limer Wed 06-Apr-16 21:04:07

Great article by Lord Owen. He knows what he's talking about. Priti Patel's quote at the end sums it up for me:

“Current levels of migration are causing unsustainable pressures on our public services and we can see that the NHS is creaking under the strain.”

Massive A&E waiting times, impossible to get GP appointments, health tourism out of control, one in four births in the UK in 2015 was to a foreign-born woman. Definite cause and effect.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Wed 06-Apr-16 21:22:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pettywoman Wed 06-Apr-16 21:27:52

Yes he's right. I don't understand why nobody is talking about it. There's largely a media blackout when there should be protests in the streets.

And I agree with Hover about the EU.

JassyAlconleigh Wed 06-Apr-16 22:14:44

don't understand why nobody is talking about it. There's largely a media blackout when there should be protests in the streets.

But, as I'm discovering, that's the case in so many current issues.

Removal of critical thinking, disneyfication of every serious issue until there are no longer awkward nuances and yelling 'racist' and 'xenophobe' at anyone who wants to debate tricky issues has caused this overwhelming silence.

Tell people what they're allowed to think and say by pillorying anyone who deviates from received wisdom, laud those who are emotionally incontinent and breast beat in public.

Keep everyone focused on how the bastard Tories are to blame for everything and soaps and celeb non-stories, plus feed them with over processed shite so their brains are dulled and there you go.

Nobody would dare riot. They simply don't know there's anything wrong.

Jonathonseagull Wed 06-Apr-16 22:19:37

Good post Jessie. Trouble is that we've had decades of people believing that left wing politics and policies equals virtuous and everything else is demonic

SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 22:23:50

Very true Jassy

Apathy rules

He's completely correct that TTIP is a ghastly prospect, but he's completely deluded that leaving the EU will prevent our government from implementing it.

This is the line that the Labour Party are emailing to their supporters. It's completely illogical.

TTIP is an agreement between the EU and the U.S. If you are not in the U.S. (Which we are not) and you are not in the EU (which we would not be if we left the EU) then we could not be party to someone else's trade agreement.

That's just a fact

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Wed 06-Apr-16 22:34:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 22:59:12

Your facts are incorrect presumptions.

I didn't say you were a Labour voter - you presumed that

Fact - you cannot be party to an agreement between the EU and the U.S if you are in neither.

If you want to avoid TTIP then we must leave the EU. Just as David Owen said.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Wed 06-Apr-16 23:00:29

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JassyRadlett Wed 06-Apr-16 23:03:42

What, it isn't factual to state that outside the EU, the UK would still need a TTIP-style agreement with the US or face punitive tariffs?

Except of course we'd have less bargaining power.

lurked101 Wed 06-Apr-16 23:13:46

TTIP is very similar to deals that are being struck all over the world and which are in the most in favour of the US, or at least thats the reporting that I have read.

Lord Owen however is wrong that if we pull of the EU that we will be immune from TITP, the UK would have to negotiate a seperate trade deal with the US and would have a much weakened hand as the US is the second largest trading partner for the UK, whilst the UK is 7th for the US. This gives them a much larger advantage

He is also wrong about this: "Current levels of migration are causing unsustainable pressures on our public services and we can see that the NHS is creaking under the strain.”

Many of the NHS problems at the moment are being caused by the swingeing cuts to social care leaving beds occupied that could be used for other purposes. The most comprehensive study on the fiscal costs and benefits immigration conducted so far has shown that EU immigration has a net fiscal benefit to the UK.

So in some ways he is right but in others wrong, TTIP is worrying, but I think we are more likely to get a better deal from within the EU, as the EU is the US's largest trading partner (more so than NAFTA) and with the UK inside the EU we also give the EU and advantage when discussing services.

Trade negotiations have never been in the news as much as recently, but the BREXIT supporters are a bit mistaken if they think that we will get as favourable deals from the EU and the US in terms of trade if we are outside of the EU.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 23:15:53

So we're doomed

The U.S. wins

The NHS is destroyed

Game over.

This is quite an elaborate addition to the 'we must stay in the EU because Cameron will give us worse'. This elaboration blames the U.S., not the EU.


SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 23:18:51


Your post us ridiculous

You cannot accept 336,000 additional people into the UK in one year alone to rely on existing NHS services and say

He is also wrong about this: "Current levels of migration are causing unsustainable pressures on our public services and we can see that the NHS is creaking under the strain.”

That is risible.

MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels Wed 06-Apr-16 23:26:18

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpringingIntoAction Wed 06-Apr-16 23:35:48

I don't believe believe we are doomed if we leave

I believe we are doomed if we stay in the EU

You presented a scenario in which we are hammered into submission by some U.S desire to exploit our markets.

Ok that's your vision. AI don't share your vision.

My alternative vision is that we exploit our position as the 5th largest economy and start making our own trade deals with the Rest of the World instead of permitting another power to make our trade deals for us

But supposing your vision is correct and we do eventually have to knuckle under U.S. trade law, which will destroy the NHS I would rather go down fighting for the NHS than roll over and accept its demise is inevitable.

The only way I see of attempting to save the NHS is, as Lord Owen says, to leave the EU.

lurked101 Wed 06-Apr-16 23:39:24

But as previously discussed Sprining the data shows that since 2000 EU immigrants are net fiscal contributors, this means they pay more in tax than they cost in government spending ( which accounts for benefit, healthcare, education etc).

Also the Oxford University Migration Observatory and the UCL study (seperate pieces of work) show that removing immigrants/clamping down would not be beneficial to services because the fall in tax reciepts would not be ofset by the reduction in demand.

At a time when the ONS states that nearly 30% of the working population are retired, with nearly half a million set to retire this year, we need immigration. Back to the OUMO it says that immigrants are more likley to be young and employed (65% have a job prior to arrving) and that the net migration figure for EU8 countries is fairly high, which indicates that there is a "migration bounce" situation going on, which means that most immigrants go home.

Now if we take into consideration non EU immigration, which is higher, there is no indication that leaving the EU would be able to stop this.

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