We rely on advertising to keep the lights on.

Please consider adding us to your whitelist.



Advanced search

Rehabilitation (teenagers' murder conviction) *Harrowing subject*

(270 Posts)
lougle Tue 05-Apr-16 23:49:58

I started a post and lost it all. I'm struggling to marry my usual stance on rehabilitation (Christian concept of redemption, Grace, etc.) with the news reports of the two young girls who have just been convicted of Murder (I won't link to the news stories as they are horrific).

Given that these girls could be released from detention before they are 30 (starting sentence is 12 years), do you think that our justice system can rehabilitate these girls so they are safe to live in society? I'm not sure I do, which is so unlike me. I even manage to feel sorry for Hitler and have compassion for the boy he was before he turned into a murderous man.

I wonder if it's because the woman they murdered was vulnerable (alcoholism) and I know that my DD1 is going to be a vulnerable adult (SN brain condition)? Perhaps I am projecting my fears onto the situation. I just can't comprehend the nature of this murder and can't understand how these girls got to this point.

Lunar1 Tue 05-Apr-16 23:54:34

I honestly don't believe murderers should ever be released. No matter what they do to redeem themselves, somebody is still dead at their hands.

A life that should have been was stolen, their loved ones will never get them back. How can that be redeemed?

ASAS Tue 05-Apr-16 23:54:42

Your final sentence. Horrific. Can't fathom the mind that conceived these actions.

Dontlaugh Tue 05-Apr-16 23:56:33

I feel for you that this topic has upset you to this point. I think perhaps more details are needed? Not be ogle a serious crime but to see where you are coming from.
I am not aware of the case.
It sounds terrible, and like so many issues if there is an issue/topic in our own lives which touch on the current topic, then I think we all are so much more upset and invested than we would normally. I remember reading about a very high profile child death in 2008. I was pregnant at the time and just cried and cried about the details, on so many levels.
I hope you can accept that there are some things we can control but many more we cannot - but we can control our reactions to them and that is what saves us.

AndNowItsSeven Wed 06-Apr-16 00:00:09

Both girls were both in social services care and were very damaged children.

MunchMunch Wed 06-Apr-16 00:03:00

I think it's the callousness of the crime that makes me think some people couldn't be rehabilitated including these two girls. The article I read was wasn't very big but I got enough information of how horrific this crime was.

lougle Wed 06-Apr-16 00:05:22

The bare details are that two teenage girls brutally attacked a vulnerable woman who was known to them (and kind to them, buying them cigarettes and alcohol at their request) for 5 hours, with a 'break' in between sessions, then phoned the police to ask for a lift home because they were cold. The woman died and was found by her landlord the next day. The details are quite horrific though.

I do feel compassion for the girls in that they were in LA care and must have had some sort of history which precipitated their behaviour. I just can't quite process the facts with their age, etc. I suppose it's similar to the James Bulgar case. The whole country seemed to be in shock then, made worse by the fact that a child going missing is every parent's worst nightmare.

LagunaBubbles Wed 06-Apr-16 00:06:17

Lots of children have damaged childhoods but don't go on to murder other humans. And the justice system should be about punishment as well as rehabilitation, but no I dont think everyone can be rehabilitated.

lougle Wed 06-Apr-16 00:08:01

AndNowItsSeven yes, you're right. Of course. But so many young people in care are very damaged and don't do this. I wonder where the line is between choice and inevitability? What causes or prevents people who have suffered from inflicting suffering on others?

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp Wed 06-Apr-16 00:09:10

I googled. Similiar to venables/Thompson

My dd and her friend, from 13-15 were constantly in trouble with the police..... Together they were a nasty pair, v v unreasonable and so obsessed with each other. Very scary to watch

Now, 5/6 years on she's back to 'normal'. I believe, in this case,a teenage mind growing into adulthood is behind such awful behaviour

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp Wed 06-Apr-16 00:12:43

Very ashamed ( and so is my dd) to say she was nasty to an adult with learning difficulties

She wouldn't have been on her own..... But when paired with this other girl ( who was timid when alone) they were just vile. Horrible

And dd looks back and is well aware of the damage she caused. Before anyone starts on me!

LagunaBubbles Wed 06-Apr-16 00:13:14

Not sure what you mean mumontherun? All teenagers have a "teenage mind" surely and have to grow into adults surely? But the majority of teenagers are murderers. confused

LidikaLikes Wed 06-Apr-16 00:14:54

Laguna interesting you say that "justice system should be about punishment as well as rehabilitation".

Have you ever worked in legal system, or jail? I have, for several years.

Do we as UK society see being in jail as the punishment, or do we think additional punishment should occur in jail? Rehabilitation is a nice idea, but many reasons why some cannot be rehabilitated/refuse to change mindset.

This case is horrific, esp as the perpetrators are young females, but sadly such violence does happen, and will happen again.

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp Wed 06-Apr-16 00:18:20


But I spent a lot of time in the teenagers boRd during those difficult 3 years ( I have 4 teens, only this one was like 'that') there were discussions about teenage behaviour and I remember a few discussions about brain wiring etc. I was involved with police and YOT who also said similiar. Brains at this time undergo massive changes and different children react differently.

I haven't said majority of teenagers are murderers? Could you highlight where you think I did please?

CockacidalManiac Wed 06-Apr-16 00:19:19

I think the hope here lies in the case of Mary Bell. A horrible crime at a young age, but rehabilitated well (as far as we know).

MarbleFox Wed 06-Apr-16 00:19:57

I googled and the details of this case are deeply disturbing and harrowing. I'm for words at the moment. It's hard to believe two people so young could be in high spirits following committing such monstrous acts, the judge also commented that they've shown no remorse whatsoever.
I don't know if I believe everyone can be rehabilitated.

FreakinScaryCaaw Wed 06-Apr-16 00:21:14

It happened very close to where I live. The girls sound so desensitised.

I don't know if they can be rehabilitated? I'm very doubtful.

The poor lady. It's shook the town.

Another murder has happened to an elderly lady this weekend, same town. It's horrific.

Dontlaugh Wed 06-Apr-16 00:21:22

Ah. A dreadful case and truly terrifying. I was on MN back in 2008 (and way before, I'm old!) and have read many many cases similar to this since then, on here. My first real "realisation" for want of a a better word was reading about Baby P. Or Peter, to give him his real name. I was distraught, crying at details, wondering at the cruelty, horrified at the other children involved and damaged etc. I read, and read, and read some more. I learnt about the cycle of abuse, the generations of neglect, poverty, casual indifference, lack of education and general horrors that children can experience. I read the Family Law Weekly, to hear even more stories from the courts, which are far more detailed and grim than those than make it into the daily fail. I read posters like Nana Nina (30 years a social worker at the coal face) and I believe her, and AnyFucker, who has seen it all. I wonder at how lucky I am and hope I can help those who aren't, and I do. Because we can all make a difference. Volunteering, donating to children's charities, watching out for a local child who is not joining in, whose clothes are too small/tatty/short. It seems insurmountable and sometimes it is, but until we stop trying, then it isn't.

MarbleFox Wed 06-Apr-16 00:21:25

I think the hope here lies in the case of Mary Bell. A horrible crime at a young age, but rehabilitated well (as far as we know).

The case of Mary Bell popped into my mind too, I believe she had a daughter now.

LagunaBubbles Wed 06-Apr-16 00:22:16

Do we as UK society see being in jail as the punishment, or do we think additional punishment should occur in jail?

No I havent worked in a jail. I see being in jail as the punishment, but I dont think the length of sentences and time served in jail is always enough to be honest. I also dont believe everyone can be rehabilitated e.g. its not going to happen if someone has a psychopathic personality disorder.

CockacidalManiac Wed 06-Apr-16 00:22:46

The case of Mary Bell popped into my mind too, I believe she had a daughter now.

She's believed to be a grandmother too

AndNowItsSeven Wed 06-Apr-16 00:24:03

Yes lougle most children in care do not commit heinous crimes. However early lack of attachment and abuse and or neglect can cause brain damage. The girls were allegedly unable to feel any remorse.

MumOnTheRunCatchingUp Wed 06-Apr-16 00:24:19

Who says anyone has a psychopathic personality disorder? And how long is 'long enough' then?

LagunaBubbles Wed 06-Apr-16 00:24:38

I haven't said majority of teenagers are murderers? Could you highlight where you think I did please?

That was meant to say the majority of teenagers arent murderers, sorry.

MarbleFox Wed 06-Apr-16 00:25:01

She's believed to be a grandmother too

Really? It's strange to think of her as a grandmother in a way. In that position, I wonder what sort of life she leads and what goes through her mind on a daily basis. Surely the guilt would be unbearable? If she's been rehabilitated then she would feel guilt, right? confused

Join the discussion

Join the discussion

Registering is free, easy, and means you can join in the discussion, get discounts, win prizes and lots more.

Register now