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Does the end ever justify the means?

(19 Posts)
6v90xu20 Tue 05-Jan-16 09:21:50

DH and I both want DH to get parental responsibility for my DD(10). He has been the most brilliant dad to her since she was 2yo and they adore each other. DD's bio dad lives thousands of miles away, never visits, pays a bit of maintenance when he remembers not very often but does enjoy spending time with DD when I take her to visit him.

Mainly we want DH to have PR so that he wouldn't be worried about having no rights over DD if I died unexpectedly, but other minor advantages too eg dealing with doctors, authorities etc. Bio dad doesn't consent to this as he thinks that in the event of my death, DD should leave family, friends and home and go live with him. (Bio dad would also still have parental responsibility so if I died and both 'dads' wanted DD, a court would have to decide on her best interests)

Dilemma is that I'm taking DD to visit his home country shortly, for the first time in over 2 years. Would it be unethical/wrong to say that he can't see DD unless he consents to DH having parental responsibility?

I can give more explanation if it helps, but wanted to keep it as simple as possible for now to get people's views! TIA

Birdsgottafly Tue 05-Jan-16 09:30:24

""Would it be unethical/wrong to say that he can't see DD unless he consents to DH having parental responsibility?""

Yes it would. This is one half of her and her culture.

Your DD is coming to an age were if you were to die, her views would be taken into account.

At 14 you're DD can be accompanied to appointments by anyone she chooses, or even alone.

You are going to cut off her Bio Dad, to suit a senario that might not happen for 3-4 years.

The teenage years can be rough, I've got three adult DDs and I've had this sort of set up in my own multi cultural family.

You don't want her being able to use your plans against you. At 14, she can access other family via the Internet and decide to live were she wants, unfortunately teens aren't always rational, or reasonable.

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark Tue 05-Jan-16 09:31:28

Yes, fraid so.
Because you lower yourself to using your DD as a bargaining chip and might find yourself in the wrong legally.

Not that I disagree with your view that your DH is more of a father Thanks her father will ever be...

EatShitDerek Tue 05-Jan-16 09:33:00

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Birdsgottafly Tue 05-Jan-16 09:33:41

Also, you must have known that this could be an issue, unless you have emigrated here, when you got pregnant?

GloGirl Tue 05-Jan-16 09:35:21

I seem to disagree with the majority on this one. I'd talk to a solicitor. It would be cruel if she had to leave the country and leave her 'Dad' who she has known all her life if her Mum died.

ThenLaterWhenItGotDark Tue 05-Jan-16 09:42:13

She wouldn't have to Glo. Not at that age.
But if the OP starts messing around with what is effectively blackmail and coercion, she might find herself facing a custody battle...

6v90xu20 Tue 05-Jan-16 09:50:19

Sorry, just to clarify a couple of things (trying too hard to be brief!).

I only meant not allow him to see DD on this trip (that DH and I are paying for). He'd be welcome to come and visit her in the UK - as he always has been.

Also, DH would have parental responsibility in addition to bio dad, not instead of. Bio dad is not technically giving up any of his rights. Although I concede that it gives DH a stronger hand were I to die.

The above may not make a difference to views though...

Birdsgottafly Tue 05-Jan-16 09:55:06

I was a CP SW and it wouldn't "give him a stronger hand", if you were to die.

Assessments don't work on PR alone and as said, she's coming to an age were she gets a chose. She may not be allowed to live outside the UK and depending on what country he is in, he may have no power to instigate this.

Start denying her contact with her Dad and she finds out, it will come back to bite you when she's a teen.

SirBoobAlot Tue 05-Jan-16 09:55:08

Although I completely understand why you want to say that, yes it would be incredibly unfair. You can't blackmail him like that, and use your daughter - it's cruel.

However, there's no reason whatsoever why you have to pay for him to see her. If he's moved back to his home country, he can come to see her.

Birdsgottafly Tue 05-Jan-16 09:55:38


thelittleredhen Tue 05-Jan-16 09:56:08

The answer to your question is yes, it would be wrong of you, as much as you'd like to.

Have you sought legal advice about the liklihood of a court awarding OH PR without exP's consent? I thought to get PR you had to fit criteria such as providing for the child, which I'd assume your OH would fit? (question marks because I'm really unsure that I'm anywhere near right!!)

Birdsgottafly Tue 05-Jan-16 10:04:26

PR is a sliding scale, within 2 years it won't be that relevant. Within 4 years, it won't matter.

Bakeoffcake Tue 05-Jan-16 10:12:04

I can understand why you feel like doing this but you are clearly unaware that in a few years it won't really matter anyway. Does this info make you feel better about what would happen if you died?

6v90xu20 Tue 05-Jan-16 10:13:19

I've looked into it and I'm confident that DH would easily get PR through the courts if he applied. He just doesn't have a flexible job that would mean he could take time off easily to do the court stuff. He could use annual leave, but that's precious time to spend with the family (we have other children between us too) and why should he need to when my ex could simply consent?

I know I don't need to pay for DD to see her dad. We have other reasons to visit his home country and I am happy that this means that they have time together and with her extended family over there. Trust me, I really have bent over backwards facilitating what relationship they have.

That's useful info on PR too, thank you Birds

SantasLittleMonkeyButler Tue 05-Jan-16 10:17:34

Why does DD only see her dad when you & your DH pay for and organise a trip?

Why does her dad never either visit her in the UK or organise for her to visit him (at his expense)? Is that not part of his responsibility as a parent?

Does he pay any child maintenance?

Previous posters are right though, it wouldn't be fair to your DD to use her as a bargaining chip.

I do understand why you have the worries you do, but hopefully, should the worst happen to you, your DD's wishes will be taken into account as is only right.

6v90xu20 Tue 05-Jan-16 10:51:35

My ex never really got the hang of organisation or responsibility so leaving it to him to arrange seeing DD in person would have meant watching their relationship wither altogether and I couldn't bring myself to let that happen.

I'm also finding it hard to contemplate putting conditions on this trip. It was DH's idea although I'm not sure if he would actually want me to go through with it. He thinks I do too much to help ex while getting nothing back. I do understand and agree with this, but instinctively I'm still fighting against refusing contact on the trip unless ex plays ball. It's just difficult to trust my gut feelings when I'm so close to the situation so thanks for all responses.

thelittleredhen Tue 05-Jan-16 10:59:22

I think you need to sort your priorities out. You're willing to not let DD see her dad in his home country even though you're visiting unless he agrees to let your DH have PR - but using a couple of days annual leave to go through court to get it is out of the question?

MaidOfStars Tue 05-Jan-16 13:00:32

He could use annual leave, but that's precious time to spend with the family

My IronyMeter is going ballistic at this.

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