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in thinking a lot of the things ISIS are damned for, Saudi Arabia et al do too

(34 Posts)
Pangurban1 Wed 02-Dec-15 13:50:29

Watching the house of commons debate about air strikes in Syria. Repeatedly things to point out how awful DAESH are are things like beheading, murder of gay people, crucifixion and children under 10 marrying.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/14/mother-of-saudi-man-sentenced-to-crucifixion-begs-obama-to-intervene

There is NO minimum age for girls to marry in Saudi!
www.arabianbusiness.com/no-minimum-age-for-marriage-of-girls-grand-mufti-576044.html

These are all things practiced by Saudi Arabia as well. Some other countries too. If those MPs putting these forth as the abhorrent practices they are, use them as making a case for bombing Syria, do they not just as equally make a case for bombing countries with similar practices as well?

howtorebuild Wed 02-Dec-15 13:51:44

Uanbu.

Pootles2010 Wed 02-Dec-15 13:52:36

As far as I can see, whenever the case is made for bombing somewhere based on threat to their own people, its bollocks. North Korea, Saudi as you say, loads of places have horrific records.

It's where there's a threat to us that they intervene. They should be more open and honest about that, I feel.

Cornettoninja Wed 02-Dec-15 13:56:57

YANBU. Was this prompted by the whole #suemesaudi? (For those not aware SA wants to sue someone who posted on twitter that SA are basically ISIS in all but name, a load of twitters decided to make the same point).

paulapompom Wed 02-Dec-15 13:57:02

Are Isis and DEASH the same? Are Isis the military/terrorist faction of DEASH? AIBU for not knowing these things? In my ignorance I can't say whether yabu or not. But the practices mentioned are horrific and should not be accepted.

Pangurban1 Wed 02-Dec-15 14:00:56

Yes, ISIS and DAESH are the same bunch. The Daesh word is an arabic acronym, I think.

howtorebuild Wed 02-Dec-15 14:01:49

news.sky.com/story/1598548/is-or-daesh-its-a-pointless-name-game

howtorebuild Wed 02-Dec-15 14:03:52

It sounds like they prefer the biblical reference.

Pangurban1 Wed 02-Dec-15 14:06:09

No Cornetto, it was prompted by the arguments put forward for the bombing of Syria in todays debate in Westminster.

Saudi Arabia, on record, do many (if not all) of the things mentioned by the speakers talking about the barbaric actions of Dash, so I don't know how they would have a successful suit (unless it was politically fixed).

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Wed 02-Dec-15 14:08:12

YAnBU
mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html

hefzi Wed 02-Dec-15 14:15:47

The Saudi state doesn't actually throw gay people off buildings. Or put people in cages and set them alight. Or execute people without a trial (whatever you think of their judicial system). Or execute/enslave people for not being Muslim. But apart from that YANBU confused

MrsTerryPratchett Wed 02-Dec-15 14:24:39

YANBU. However, all the Western politicians are in bed with them for some reason oil.

Vagabond Wed 02-Dec-15 14:44:56

Not oil Mrs Terry Pratchett: the al Yamamah military project. Worth billions every year to BAE Systems and other defence contractors. And a bit of oil.

Masterpiece1 Wed 02-Dec-15 14:49:35

Loads of countries still have the death penalty and questionable methods of imprisonment. I don't see why the middle east gets all the flak?

ElfontheShelfIsWATCHINGYOUTOO Wed 02-Dec-15 15:11:11

North Korea?

Probably the biggest prison camp on the earth

LurkingHusband Wed 02-Dec-15 15:14:20

Loads of countries still have the death penalty and questionable methods of imprisonment.

The USA for a start.

Lulabellarama Wed 02-Dec-15 15:19:56

Saudi Arabia is a really worrying country, they have spent somewhere in the region of £100 billion dollars indoctrinating desperately poor communities into their brand of Wahhabism. They offer to lift these people out of abject poverty, build them schools, give them jobs, all on the condition they take on their religious beliefs.

For those who don't know, Wahhabism is the fundamental strand of Islam that believes that if you do not subscribe to their exact rules you are punishable by death. It Is absolutist and has no room for debate or nuance. It is the basis of ISIL/ISIS/DAESH's jihad.

That we should have any part in financing such an appalling programme, through trade with SA is abhorrent. It's such an easy moral judgement, yet is massively unpopular politically.

Worrying.

Lulabellarama Wed 02-Dec-15 15:21:58

Just for clarification, Wahhabism is derived from Sunni Islam, yet still believes less extreme Sunnis should be murdered, as they do not go far enough.

LurkingHusband Wed 02-Dec-15 15:24:37

For me, the greatest worry is that the Saudi Arabia you see now is actually on it's best behaviour - it needs to be to sell it's oil to the West.

However, the US is reaching (if not reached) oil self-sufficiency thanks to shale oil/gas.

What will Saudi Arabia be like when it's not on it's best behaviour ?

OfaFrenchmind2 Wed 02-Dec-15 15:27:30

Agreed completely. Actually, check on twitter the hashtag #SuemeSaudi.
Saudi Arabia threatened to sue an anonymous twitter user not in Saudi because he said that Saudi and Isis were basically the same. The twitter world decided to taunt them in a quite funny way.

OfaFrenchmind2 Wed 02-Dec-15 15:29:14

Masterpiece1 because most of them do not plan on beheading and crucifying a 17yo because he took part in a demonstration?
Because neither the US or Japan kill people for sorcery?

BarbarianMum Wed 02-Dec-15 15:29:44

I think ISIS are worse than Saudi Arabia but our government's silence on the simularities between them is quite interesting.

Pangurban1 Wed 02-Dec-15 15:36:39

hefzi, I don't know the entire array of ways Saudi Arabia kills people under it's control for adultery, blasphemy, apostasy, gayness, etc. They do stoning, beheading, cruxifixction for sure. Like ISIS. And chop bits off people. Whipping. ISIS, of course have their horrible videos. I don't think video is allowed in chop-chop square or wherever the Saudis kill people.

Maybe they take more trouble than ISIS to find out if the person is 'guilty' of those particular crimes before judgement. Maybe not. Or maybe it is similarly fated once set in motion. They use similar if not the basis for their laws.

I don't know what would happen to you if you were an visibly active practitioner of any other religion on their jurisdiction. Or none. They classify atheism as terrorism. That Palestinian poet is sentenced to death for spreading atheism and apostacy. So I think they can do nasty things to people for not being a muslim. Or maybe visibly and actively not being a muslim.

Masterpiece, I just thought the points raised to make their case by some MPs about ISIS in the debate today did exactly correspond to practices carried out in Saudi Arabia. Why do reasons put forth for bombing ISIS in Syria and outlining their abhorrent practices not carry the same proposition for the same practices in Saudi Arabia?

The beheadings, murder for being gay, cruxifixction and marrying of girls under 10 are the particular practices carried out by ISIS mentioned by the MPs. The death penalty for identical things and the methods used correspond more to countries such as Saudi rather than the US or China.

Don't think many know what North Korea do.

Oh, I forgot witchcraft/sorcery. ISIS have killed people for that as well as Saudi Arabia.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18503550

ottothedog Wed 02-Dec-15 15:43:17

Hefzi
Nope, they dont afaik throw gay people off buildings. They can throw stones at them til they are dead tho. It takes longer. Is that better?

LurkingHusband Wed 02-Dec-15 15:48:53

I read a harrowing description[1] in a newspaper (Sunday supplement maybe) years ago, where the write was unwittingly invited to a beheading. Apparently the crowd (because these are public executions[2]) enjoy it more if a non-Muslim can be pushed to the front as the blade falls, since it's considered some sort of insult if the last thing a condemned person sees is an infidel.

[1]They lay out plastic sheeting to catch the blood as it pumps out of the neck.

[2]Of course, famously, special tube trains were laid on for the last public execution in England (1868 - Dickens wrote about it), which is a weird moment in time.

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