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to feel my sympathy with the French government evaporate?

(154 Posts)
Tiivola Mon 16-Nov-15 16:37:01

So the French government wants to suspend civil liberties for three months, effectively turning the country into a police state?

And if Francois "this is war" Hollande invokes article 5 of the Nato treaty, the UK could be forced to join in military action in Syria?!

AIBU to think that while I have the greatest possible sympathy with the French people, the French government can go fuck themselves...?

SlaggyIsland Mon 16-Nov-15 16:41:09

Agree. YANBU.

SlaggyIsland Mon 16-Nov-15 16:51:20

This is really worrying actually. It's just the kind of response that I hoped wouldn't occur.
And by flinging a bunch of bombs at people they're going to kill far more civilians than they lost in the attack.

MissFitt68 Mon 16-Nov-15 17:10:55

How would the uk get dragged in? I don't have a clue about this stuff,sorry for my ignorance

MaidOfStars Mon 16-Nov-15 17:17:45

Every analysis I've seen has said that Article 5 is unlikely to fly.

MaidOfStars Mon 16-Nov-15 17:19:19

Miss NATO members are obliged to go to war alongside other members.

CoteDAzur Mon 16-Nov-15 17:26:45

Article 5 is about collective defense when a NATO country is attacked. Good luck arguing it was Syria that attacked when all killers were EU nationals.

JumpandScore Mon 16-Nov-15 17:34:28

It occurred to me this morning that is is very similar to Bush's declaration after 911 and look where that led.

I think it's unlikely that Article 5 will force war on us but I do think it's possible that combined Nato leaders will support France and take us there anyway.

As to the French government, I think a good number of French people agree with their actions, as UK would if we'd been attacked on this scale. Can't expect civil liberties if you're at war sad

Millipedewithherfeetup Mon 16-Nov-15 17:36:54

As far as i know, and I'm not in any way claiming to be an expert is if france evokes article 5 of the treaty then it means we will all (all nations that have signed)will consider to all be at war with ISIS, means that our troops will also be deployed etc, until we declare war or have it evoked then if we send in troops etc we will be acting illegally.

MaidOfStars Mon 16-Nov-15 17:37:44

Could a combined NATO effort reasonably work with Russia?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Mon 16-Nov-15 17:39:12

Agree. Hollandes response seems perfectly crafted to further inflame the situation, recruit many more fighters for ISIS, encourage others to perpetrate attacks and generally playing right into ISIS' hands.

MaidOfStars Mon 16-Nov-15 17:39:25

(Not advocating a combined response, BTW, just wondering how that might alienate a potentially powerful temporary ally)

HesterShaw Mon 16-Nov-15 17:41:52

I agree with what has been said so far, but what does the French government do, in that case? Do they just turn the other cheek? Do they take it lying down?

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow Mon 16-Nov-15 17:43:47

It depends. How will they hope to solve the problem in 3 months? At which point, if they feel they're onto something will they try to extend it even more?

And would the current attacks have been prevented if they'd had such powers?

At a gut level I don't blame them. They're effectively at war and we should stand by them because it could be us next. We would want them on our side if we were attacked I'm sure.

SirChenjin Mon 16-Nov-15 17:47:15

What do you think they should do OP?

Supermanspants Mon 16-Nov-15 17:55:40

So, what do YOU think should be done OP?

MaidOfStars Mon 16-Nov-15 17:55:41

It occurred to me this morning that is is very similar to Bush's declaration after 911 and look where that led
Hmm, France were already active in bombing Syria though. They've stepped it up, rather than start new.

GruntledOne Mon 16-Nov-15 17:55:42

Millipede, is it actually possible in international legal terms to be at war with ISIS as opposed to war with another country?

juneau Mon 16-Nov-15 17:57:46

France has declared itself to be at war and in times of war it is normal to suspend civil liberties. Right now their priority is to secure the country and hunt down the accomplices of those who murdered 129 people on Friday night in the heart of their capital city. Quite frankly, if that attack had happened in London I would expect our leaders to react in the same way. Banning large gatherings until they can be fairly sure that those gatherings will be safe strikes me as eminently sensible.

All of you who would pussy-foot around and appease and who are wringing your hands - imagine for a minute that that attack had happened in London or Birmingham or wherever you live and work. Imagine that your family or friends had been caught up in it - even killed - then think how you might feel then. You can't appease these terrorists. They hate us and want us to die. Don't you get it? This is article is pretty good, in case you don't:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11998324/Kind-hearts-wont-stop-Isil.html

Branleuse Mon 16-Nov-15 17:59:22

The fact that they immediately swooped and made a shitload of arrests as soon as state of emergency declared, says to me that they knew all along, but werent able to act till then.

God knows what the answer is. Always so many innocents hurt though.

Millipedewithherfeetup Mon 16-Nov-15 18:01:53

Gruntled one, sorry, as ive said im no expert at all, i dont understand your question ?

Chipstick10 Mon 16-Nov-15 18:04:03

Glad there wasn't this tedious hand wringing during World War Two.

Twinkie1 Mon 16-Nov-15 18:06:19

It's civil liberty bull shit that stops the crazy people who murdered all those poor people on Friday from being arrested sooner.

I want identity cards, I want the security services to be able to read my emails and listen to my telephone calls if it means these people are stopped from salute ring innocent people going about their business.

TigersOfAlexpolis Mon 16-Nov-15 18:13:32

Where I live, all citizens are required to have ID cards, Twinkie. I have no problem with this, in fact I am in favour of it, for many, many reasons, but let's not be unrealistic: it doesn't prevent terrorism.

SwedishEdith Mon 16-Nov-15 18:20:24

The French have identity cards, albeit not compulsory, but they still have them. Not sure what the point of them is other than for convenience.

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