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If Labour don't want to win what is the point of them?

(40 Posts)
kellyandthecat Fri 31-Jul-15 11:45:26

The head of the union that endorsed Corbyn yesterday said on R4: “I want to see a party that stands up for workers again, that stands up for the disadvantaged in society and puts those principles first, without compromising those principles just in pursuit of an election victory."

Isn't this completely contradictory?? How do you help anyone if you don't win? It's alright for him with a nice union job whatever happens but all the nice principles in the world aren't worth a hill of beans if you can't actually put them in to practise. Now personally I don't mind Corbyn, I would not support him because I remember the 80s but I think people have a right to vote for him and to have lots of ideas presented to them that's how democracy works but a lot of his supporters irritate me. The kind of people who scream and cry about Tories being EVIL and the WORSE THING EVER and then don't actually really care about winning are just posers and malcontents who will be sittinf pretty whoever is in power. I come from a working class background and I owe a lot to policies done by Labour but you don't care about normal people if you aren't willing to compromise to win and I would rather vote for a Conservative with good intentions than a privileged person crying about the sufferings of the poor but actually its all a game and they don't care enough to actually do something about it. There I said it. AIBU?

HedgehogAtHome Fri 31-Jul-15 11:48:10

But there's no point in having an opposition that's the same. Otherwise we should just declare the Tories our new over lords and have done with it.

I hate hate hate UKIP, but I'll go to the wall for their right to stand. I like the Greens locally, have to settle with the SNP. Green ain't gonna win, but I think it's important what they're trying to do in our local area and I'm glad they're there.

FuzzyWizard Fri 31-Jul-15 11:53:59

What it the point in democracy and voting if all the parties offer us exactly the same thing because they are chasing points in opinion polls?
People are getting turned off from politics because politicians are all spouting the same bland, vague shite. Then when they get into power they do whatever they fancy regardless of election promises anyway. I think a powerful, principled opposition is an important thing to have. If people vote for Labour's principles next time then great, if they don't then that's life. Labour shouldn't compromise their principles to get elected... what democracy is lacking at the moment in this country is real choice IMO.

kellyandthecat Fri 31-Jul-15 12:02:56

I'm not saying that I don't think there should be a choice or that I don't think it's a good thing for the parties to be more different. I just think it's hypocritical if you set up your political beliefs as a moral crusade to then be like oh never mind.

If things are really that bad in the country then they should be doing everything they can to change them and if they're not then they should start discussing the issues more responsibly

it's the boy who cried wolf

TattyDevine Fri 31-Jul-15 12:03:53

I've pondered and pondered Labour but I am yet to work out what the point of them is.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Fri 31-Jul-15 12:05:33

They do want to win. It's just they want to win for the right reasons, their traditional principles, rather than because they are more Tory than the Tories.

But Fuzzywizard said it better than me ☺

Welshwabbit Fri 31-Jul-15 12:06:58

YANBU. There is a lot of ground between failing to be an opposition at all (although Harriet Harman has got close recently) and being Jeremy Corbyn and thus unelectable, as most of his supporters seem to acknowledge. Not sure any of the current leadership candidates will be able to find or occupy that ground though.

The Greens and UKIP are different. Their role is essentially to exert incremental pressure from outside. The Labour party should be a party of government. In order to have a chance of governing it needs tto be centre - left.

LurkingHusband Fri 31-Jul-15 12:07:15

Maybe an outcome of universal suffrage is political blandness ?

I'm sure if we were to put together a menu based on what 70% of the population that can be arsed to vote like, we'd end up with a bland menu too.

It's not there are no extremes. Just they cancel out ....

BitOfFun Fri 31-Jul-15 12:12:12

Even if they didn't win the next election on a very left wing platform, if Labour's position means there's a proper debate about the ridiculous austerity mantra, and it helps people stand up against what the Tories are doing, it might rattle their cage enough for them to rein in some of their wilder excesses. We are in real danger of losing any kind of welfare provision if something doesn't change.

ilovesooty Fri 31-Jul-15 12:26:09

To me there are so many holes in the OP I really wouldn't know where to start.

mariposa10 Fri 31-Jul-15 12:34:02

It isn't in the unions' interests to have a Labour government in power, that's why. Their whole raison d'être is opposing the government, that's how they get their membership galvanised/dutifully paying their subs. Unfortunately they seem to be dictating who is going to win the leadership and it is not in the interests of the party.

ilovesooty Fri 31-Jul-15 12:36:45

How are the unions dictating the outcome of the leadership election when they have no block vote?

CasperGutman Fri 31-Jul-15 12:42:30

What would be the point of Labour winning if they didn't want to advocate for a left-of-centre, even moderately socialist, position?

First they need to be Labour, then worry about winning.

thecatfromjapan Fri 31-Jul-15 12:46:57

I think a lot of our problems electorally come down to the fact thst power appears to be held by the 'undecideds' who, by definition, can't be arsed to educate themselves about politics.
I feel very sad about that.hmm

ilovesooty Fri 31-Jul-15 12:48:40

cat I agree with you.

needmorespace Fri 31-Jul-15 13:00:20

BitOfFun CasperGutman what you both said
I think there is an appetite for a less right wing government. The centre ground has moved so far to the right and a lot of people did not vote for a Tory or UKIP government. Labour did not do as badly as the right wing press would believe and when you add in the SNP, Green and Lib Dem votes there is definitely an agenda that doesn't promote austerity.
I will be voting for Jeremy purely to show the LP that I would like it to move to the left.

mariposa10 Fri 31-Jul-15 13:05:27

Union backing of candidates cannot be underestimated in the members with a vote. They actively recruit members as party supporters which makes up a significant proportion of the vote. If all the unions back one candidate, the message is clear which way they want their members to vote.

TheSkyAtNight Fri 31-Jul-15 13:24:15

Agree with posters who have talked about the importance of changing the narrative from austerity being the only option. I'm a life-long Labour voter, but don't want to be voting for the same free market ideology as the Tories hold. I joined the party today so I can vote for JC. And I really want Labour to win!

kellyandthecat Fri 31-Jul-15 16:39:04

I can respect people who want Jeremy Corbyn and genuinely want him to win

But I feel like there are lots of people who just enjoy being able to complain and be self-righteous so they don't actually care if he gets elected or not

i read some thing where they were saying people at a corbyn meeting were booing Tony Blair. Tony Blair had his problems but anyone who thinks he was 'just the same' as the Tories needs their heads examined. a lot of young voters don't remember the likes of james callaghan and michael foot but i do. they might have been good men but in terms of helping people they were a disaster because they enabled mrs t. that is my problem with corbyn

Dawndonnaagain Fri 31-Jul-15 16:48:33

Foot did not enable Thatcher in any way whatosever, but yes, he was a good, kind and extremely intelligent man.

Figmentofmyimagination Fri 31-Jul-15 16:53:33

At the start of Owen jones' book the establishment, he talks about the ovenden window. This is the window of policies that are politically conceivable without looking like a basket case. I agree with him that starting with thatcher's free market mentor, Enoch Powell (the ideological dad of our current front bench), there has been a really major shift to the right in English politics. Things that we thought of as normal (eg council housing for ordinary working people) have become abnormal and stigmatised. This is ward's point. He wants to shift the policy window back towards the centre left. This is really important IMHO.

Hannahouse Fri 31-Jul-15 17:48:47

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hannahouse Fri 31-Jul-15 17:50:28

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

kellyandthecat Fri 31-Jul-15 18:39:31

Foot did not enable Thatcher in any way whatosever, but yes, he was a good, kind and extremely intelligent man.

This is just nonsense. He lost. She stayed PM. If he hadn't lost, she couldn't have done what she did. So yes he didn't enable her willingly, but he did enable her.

BitOfFun Fri 31-Jul-15 18:39:38

Overton Window- yes, it's a really important reason why Labour needs to shift to the left.

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