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To not understand why the SNP are so anti EVEL?

(102 Posts)
ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 18:46:54

They have always abstained from voting (except on fox hunting hmm) on EVEL.

It's so hypocritical.

SunsetSongster Tue 14-Jul-15 18:51:04

They wouldn't get to vote on things like the nhs which affects funding for Scotland (there's a link between the two) under the current plans. I don't think they should have stuck to what they said over fox hunting though.

DisappointedOne Tue 14-Jul-15 18:52:19

I'm anti EVEL because it's not actually EVEL.

SunsetSongster Tue 14-Jul-15 18:52:22

Also if fox hunting for through it might have made the tories more unpopular at the next election!

JackSkellington Tue 14-Jul-15 18:53:52

Possibly because a lot of English laws will have a knock-on effect on rUK, sooner or later. But I do see the point with fox hunting, it's horrific no matter which part of the UK it happens in. And hopefully if the amendment doesn't go through it will also pave the way for a complete ban in Scotland and elsewhere.

Scoobydoo8 Tue 14-Jul-15 18:55:38

OMG this makes me scared for Scotland's future - the yah booh, style of politics makes me shudder.
Na, na, na, na naaa. We've got lots of MPs.

Nicola Sturgeon is an MSP, she should keep out of Westminster. And act like an adult.

Coffeethrowtrampbitch Tue 14-Jul-15 18:58:23

You must not be aware that every amendment proposed to the Scotland Bill by the SNP, who have 56 MP's in Westminster, have been voted down by the Tories, who have 1 Scottish MP.

This includes the right of Scotland to hold an independence referendum, something which was promised as a power by the Conservatives, and then voted down by them in the Scotland Bill after the election.

Scotland already has MP's not elected in Scotland making decisions on purely Scottish matters, EVEL is being proposed in case Scotland do the same to England. It has never actually happened.

So I'm sorry MP's from outside your country might vote to prevent you torturing animals for sport. I hope you feel sorry for me that MP's from a different country have voted on a huge amount of legislation that will affect mine and my children's futures for years.

Care to swap?

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:01:17

This includes the right of Scotland to hold an independence referendum, something which was promised as a power by the Conservatives

When was that promised?

Behooven Tue 14-Jul-15 19:02:16

I though Nicola Sturgeon stated categorically during the election that this was not about an independence campaign? First I've heard that the conservatives made any such promise as one of the powers in the Smith commission.

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:04:06

But the change they were voting against is legal in Scotland!

SquirrelledAway Tue 14-Jul-15 19:04:13

So much for Salmond's so-called "once in a lifetime" referendum last year then.

Scoobydoo8 Tue 14-Jul-15 19:04:33

The problem is that Uk taxpayers' money all goes in the same pot. So for example, if high speed 2 is only going from London to Brum why should my tax pay for it. It does, so therefore my mp can vote on it.

JackSkellington Tue 14-Jul-15 19:06:09

Exactly what you said, Coffee.

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:06:17

The problem is that Uk taxpayers' money all goes in the same pot.

Thank you Scooby, that makes sense.

WhereYouLeftIt Tue 14-Jul-15 19:06:34

I was only half-listening at the time, but I'm pretty sure I heard something on the radio about some list of Bills that supposedly had nothing to do with Scotland, but which when looked at more closely a substantial number did affect Scotland. Hence Sturgeon not being keen on Scottish MPs being blocked from voting on them.

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:07:55

I am Scottish coffee. I hope you aren't insinuating that anyone who criticises the SNP cannot be Scottish?

tabulahrasa Tue 14-Jul-15 19:10:47

Because in a union of countries...what Westminster does is almost always guaranteed to affect the other countries indirectly.

Also, this situation has been going on for years, Scottish MPs voting on policy that doesn't directly affect Scotland yet it's suddenly an issue because they're SNP MPs.

It takes powers away from Scottish MPs without giving Scotland any significant extra powers...so basically Scottish MPs will be second tier ones and MSPs don't get more power, so it decreases representation in Scotland.

WhereYouLeftIt Tue 14-Jul-15 19:11:05

Ah, found the story |(Nicola Sturgeon calls English votes plan 'unacceptable')on the BBC news website. She is quoted as saying "Of the 20 Bills listed by the UK government as not extending to Scotland, no fewer than 13 of them did,"

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:12:28

Also, this situation has been going on for years, Scottish MPs voting on policy that doesn't directly affect Scotland yet it's suddenly an issue because they're SNP MPs.

The SNP have always made such a fuss over abstaining though. That's why I hmm

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:13:15

Thanks for the link!

tabulahrasa Tue 14-Jul-15 19:16:27

"The SNP have always made such a fuss over abstaining though."

Yes because they were only really interested in independence...post referendum they have to actually work in the system we have IMO, because Scotland voted to stay in that system.

Toadinthehole Tue 14-Jul-15 19:17:06

Excluding Scottish MPs from voting on budgetary changes that affect Scotland would be outrageous. However, that is clearly not what is proposed.

The proposal is that Scottish MPs do not vote on matters that do not affect Scotland. It follows that if Scotland was affected, its MPs would get a vote.

The budget is set for the UK as a whole, and Scotland is allocated a proportional block of funding. It is up to the Scottish government (acting within its powers under the Scotland Act) how that funding is spent. Therefore Scottish MPs would get to vote on the budget (and budgetary changes).

It's no different from devolution, just an awful lot cheaper.

Coffeethrowtrampbitch
The Scotland Act determines what lawmaking powers are delegated from Parliament at Westminster to the Scottish parliament. It follows that all Westminster MPs get a vote on amendments to it.

As for the power to hold independence referenda? Really? How often? Every week? I don't believe the Tories made any such promise, but I can imagine lots of people in the indy blogosphere claiming a promise was made on zero evidence.

ninaricci Tue 14-Jul-15 19:17:19

That's an interesting way of putting it, tabulah, thanks.

susyot Tue 14-Jul-15 19:23:12

If EVEL is introduced could we ever have a Scottish, Welsh or N. Irish Prime Minister, Chancellor or head of any other departments? After all if MPs from those countries are barred from committees which write the legislation which is intended to be an English only law how could they possibly introduce or champion the bill?

EVEL is not just about voting it's about creating a secondary class of MP. I think we tried this before and didn't work out too well.

I'm English and I think the way the Tories are behaving is a threat to the union of the UK. I was appalled when Cameron made the EVEL announcement the day after the Scottish referendum. I am not opposed to constitutional reform but it needs to be examined on a cross party basis and introduced as primary legislation.

I think it is very telling that they are changing the rules on how the commons is run and have stated that they are doing it this way as otherwise may be challenged in the law courts (the courts can not be used to challenge the internal rules of how the commons is run)

Euphemia Tue 14-Jul-15 19:24:48

Sturgeon's letter to David Mundell (Scotland's only Tory MP) states: "Of the 20 Bills listed by the UK Government as not extending to Scotland, no fewer than 13 of them did. Several covered important areas such as charities, criminal justice and anti-slavery measures and had significant impacts on Scotland, over and above the Barnett implications that might flow from legislation."

She's quite right to object on these grounds. These points don't strike me as bring deliberately obstructive, unlike the fox hunting thing.

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