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to think Brian May could be anti foxhunting without......

(136 Posts)
fortyfide Sat 11-Jul-15 11:00:50

telling an hunting geezer "you are all f+cking liars" (Newsnight TV thurs)
I am anti foxhunting too and Cameron should not try to sneak it back

Debate in Parliament on Tuesday

maninawomansworld Sat 11-Jul-15 13:47:16

I've had plenty of debates (both on here and in real life) about fox hunting so I'm not interested in getting into another one, however Mr May's conduct on newsnight pretty much sums up the anti hunting movement.

This time next week it'll be legal again. Bring it on!

FyreFly Sat 11-Jul-15 13:49:49

Regardless of what the debate is about and what side you take, reducing yourself to insults and profanities certainly doesn't win anyone my support.

He's a damned good guitarist though. Love Queen!

WhetherOrNot Sat 11-Jul-15 13:49:50

And how would you feel, manina, if the pack ripped a fox to pieces on your patio in front of your children? Yeah, right.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 13:55:02

Has that happened to you Whether? How horrible. Did you have to deal with the remains after the hunt had gone?

horseygeorgie Sat 11-Jul-15 13:56:02

I'm with manina. Luckily I haven't got a patio. I wonder how many times whether has seen the conclusion to a fox hunt? Because I would put a massive wad of cash on the fact it is nowhere near the amount of times I have seen the conclusion of a fox hunt. The actual reality of it is incredibly quick and nowhere near as bloodthirsty as the anti hunting brigade would have people think. Plus hounds don't actually like the taste of fox as a meat, it is not a feast but a very quick dispatch.

I'm not getting dragged into another hunting debate so will duck out before I'm called 'violent scum of the lowest order' and told I am likely to go on to abusing my pet spaniel, as happened last time! grin

silverglitterpisser Sat 11-Jul-15 14:03:51

Hunting is a vile, cruel idiocy and anyone who finds pleasure in the horrific and terrifying death of an innocent animal whilst calling it sport is beneath my contempt.

I am extremely knowledgeable in this field so am saying that from a place of vast education and experience and won't be drawn in to debating or commenting further. My last word on the subject is KARMA.

horseygeorgie Sat 11-Jul-15 14:06:07

I am beyond your contempt then. Oh dear. That's me re-evaluating my entire life then. grin

Oswin Sat 11-Jul-15 14:09:33

I just don't get where's the fun in terrifying an animal then ripping it apart. Why would anyone enjoy it? Its mind boggling.

BuggerLumpsAnnoyed Sat 11-Jul-15 14:15:48

As Oscar Wilde puts it its "the unspeakable chasing the uneatable'

I have seen many Fox hunts. It goes through the land I live on and many people round here partake. I will never understand how members so a so-called 'civilised society' can take pleasure in such a thing. It is no more civilised than pit bull fighting, apart from you wear a smarter jacket and drink port.

Sometimes it's a quick death and sometimes its not. It does little to keep Fox numbers down (I mention this as this is often the only argument people can put forward to justify their behaviour). I'd have slightly more respect if they'd just admit they liked the savagery.

It would be pretty undemocratic to bring it back as it was a law passsed with a ridiculously high approval rating. Showing once again the government doesn't give a fuck about the plebs as long as their tossed, simpleton friends are happy

BuggerLumpsAnnoyed Sat 11-Jul-15 14:16:45

*tosser, not tossed

feebeecat Sat 11-Jul-15 14:18:12

Didn't see it, but it's a shame as it plays right into the hands of the blithering idiots arguing to lift the ban.

Think it says a lot that on the day Osborne was announcing a budget full of cuts that will effect the lives of many, many people in this country our "leader" was arguing that it was 'right and fair' (how the hell he uses those words without choking is beyond me) that people should have the right to waste parliamentary time & effort debating the lifting of the ban. Priorities.

Fantasyland Sat 11-Jul-15 14:36:07

There must be something seriously wrong with people who think fox hunting is ok.
It says it all that the people who want the ban lifted are rich Tories who have no compassion or empathy towards anyone other than the rich
If fox numbers do need to be controlled then it should be done humanely.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 14:40:02

KARMA?!?! What, you think bad bad things will happen to anyone involved in hunting. Do bad bad things happen to everyone who eats battery chickens or beer from cows who've been kept in sheds all their lives?

slightlyconfused85 Sat 11-Jul-15 14:40:52

I agree entirely with the op; Brian May doesn't need to swear. However, i detest fox hunting and am aghast that it is taking up any parliament time or effort

MitzyLeFrouf Sat 11-Jul-15 14:42:32

It would be pretty undemocratic to bring it back as it was a law passsed with a ridiculously high approval rating. Showing once again the government doesn't give a fuck about the plebs as long as their tossed, simpleton friends are happy

This pretty much sums it up.

soapboxqueen Sat 11-Jul-15 14:44:21

I think it's pretty poor to resort to name calling. If nothing else it wastes air time that could be used to get the message across, whatever that may be.

I'm against fox hunting and I'm pissed off that this government is going to waste time debating it in order to keep their friends happy.

MitzyLeFrouf Sat 11-Jul-15 14:45:00

But I agree that it's illogical for people to get emotional about fox hunting if they're prepared to eat battery farmed meat.

MuttonCadet Sat 11-Jul-15 14:48:23

There are a lot of debates that waste parliamentary time.

But I agree fox hunting was banned for a reason, it should stay banned.

soapboxqueen Sat 11-Jul-15 14:50:25

That assumes that they do eat battery farmed meat.

However I don't think the two are directly comparable, though I do see the similarities.

The purpose of a battery farmed hen (or anything) is to produce food.

The purpose of the chased fox is to provide entertainment.

As much as I don't like either, I can deal with the former slighter better than the latter.

MitzyLeFrouf Sat 11-Jul-15 14:55:35

I can deal with fox hunting slightly better than battery farming as the fox has an organic life to all intents and purposes before he's ripped to shreds. I'd rather have a good life with a tragic end than a life that's grim from start to finish.

Doesn't mean I'm not disgusted at the thought of the reintroduction of fox hunting to the British countryside though.

ThursdayLast Sat 11-Jul-15 14:57:36

Personally I think Brian May is an insufferable idiot. I didn't see this particular incident, but it doesn't surprise me.

horseygeorgie Sat 11-Jul-15 15:00:39

Well i think i would rather have the foxes deal in life over a battery hen every day!
Fox = wild animal, lives in natural habitat. End of life is a contentious point but it is the end of life, not its whole life.
Hen = alive for 29 miserable days (if for food) in a space the size of an A4 piece of paper. Bred so badly the legs cannot take the weight of the bird, hence ammonia burns on the chest and legs. Has never seen daylight. End is relatively quick.

I wonder what the chicken would pick. I'm not sure the fact that it is reared to produce food justifies the method of its keeping. At least foxes have a good life for most of it.

soapboxqueen Sat 11-Jul-15 15:05:16

You see, I accept that crappy things happen in nature. Baby seals or penguins getting raped to death by otters or sea lions etc

I just have a really big problem with people wandering about freely who take their pleasure and entertainment from watching a creature suffer. No other reason than the joy of it. I just think it's a bit twisted.

I suppose, as much at I don't like the thought of the animal suffering, it's that people want to do it I object to rather than the act itself. If that makes any sense.

So even though both foxes and battery hens suffer, the hens suffering is a side effect not the main thrust. The person buying a battery hen to eat isn't buying it because the hen suffered.

horseygeorgie Sat 11-Jul-15 15:10:51

I'm sure that comes as great comfort to the hen.

Ipigglemustdie Sat 11-Jul-15 15:11:31

Hate foxes with a passion. Vile chicken killing things. But all for banning the hunt for the sole reason of mildly inconveniencing the privileged few.
Poncing about with their stupid costumes and stupid horns riding mummy's favourite horse...

slightlyconfused85 Sat 11-Jul-15 15:23:31

I'm struggling to understand what battery farmed chickens have to do with the fox hunting argument?

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 11-Jul-15 15:32:02

Fox hunting is vile, and anyone who does it it a knob.
I can't believe we're going to have to have these conversations again after this seemed to have condemned to a more barbaric past where it belongs. 'Oh but don't you realise foxes are vermin, and also don't you realise that we quite often don't even kill them anyway' etc.

sebsmummy1 Sat 11-Jul-15 15:34:08

I have been on a fox hunt and saw nothing. I'm not sure if any were caught the day I went.

I think if you are raised in a country/equestrian environment it is considered pretty normal, so you don't think anymore about it than you might pheasants being shot for sport or rabbits being shot on farmer's land. I don't feel hugely passionate about it either way and considering the urban fox numbers are starting to increase as more land is turned into housing I suspect there will be a cull introduced directly a child or baby is hurt by one.

FyreFly Sat 11-Jul-15 15:40:33

Is this about a class war or is this about foxhunting? Reading these comments it's hard to tell...

Round here it's mostly your average farmer (I.e far from rich) who hunts, and they tend to ride in whatever jacket they have and they can't borrow "mummy's" horse hmm as she doesn't have one either and they have to hire one.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 11-Jul-15 15:57:31

I don't really care what class they are - I think if you read back more carefully, Fyrefly, it's fairly clear that the comments other than 'mummy's horse' are very much about fox hunting, not class.

FyreFly Sat 11-Jul-15 16:18:47

That's my point Original - it doesn't matter, and yet still the insults fly. "Privileged simpletons" for one.

Fwiw, I'm ambivalent on foxhunting. Never done it, have no plans to. I'm a rubbish rider. The ban didn't affect me and whatever happens on Tuesday, it will continue to be something that happens to other people. However I am a keen shooter and as a result mix heavily with that sort of fraternity and the farming and rural community as a whole. I have friends who fox hunt and as far as im concerned they're lovely people (although would probably look askance at being told they're posh).

I can see pros and cons of shooting vs hunting. Hunting is harsher on the individual animal (the chase) but shooting is harsher on the population (no closed season, indiscriminate, higher kill rate) and there is always the risk of injury but not death - something that certainly isn't a risk with hounds.

I can't say I'm for or against to be honest, however it is far from as black and white (or as toff vs townie) as people like to make out.

Floundering Sat 11-Jul-15 16:24:46

I'm against the amount of govt time + money spent on this bloody subject, given the percentage of the population who indulge in it.

Floundering Sat 11-Jul-15 16:25:31


Toughasoldboots Sat 11-Jul-15 16:35:32

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheCrowFromBelow Sat 11-Jul-15 16:36:44

I'm against the amount of govt time + money spent on this bloody subject, given the percentage of the population who indulge in it.

This with bells on. What a bloody waste of time. Just so Dave can keep his chums happy.

And I wish they would debate battery farming instead. The suffering isn't a side effect, it's a carefully calculated part of the process to provide cheap meat.

Fantasyland Sat 11-Jul-15 16:57:33

I don't understand how it's cheaper for battery farm hens to be put in cages than roaming about some farm land. Surely the cost of cages increases costs?

soapboxqueen Sat 11-Jul-15 17:05:07

Crow I meant the people buying battery hens aren't buying it BECAUSE the hens were kept in awful conditions. They are buying cheap chicken.

People involved in fox hunting are doing it for the pleasure of the hunt. The sole purpose of it is to make the animal suffer.

As I said before, I don't think comparing the two is useful. Just because thing A happens doesn't mean it's ok for thing B to happen. I think both should be illegal.

However, I still think there is a difference between the type of person who buys battery reared chicken for their tea and one who hunts foxes. The decision processes are different.

TheCrowFromBelow Sat 11-Jul-15 17:14:31

soap People who buy cheap chicken know where it comes from and they are responsible for those conditions by creating the demand. It is only cheap BECAUSE it was kept in awful conditions.

If everyone stopped buying chicken that is farmed like this, there wouldn't be any demand and the farmers would change methods.

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 17:27:32

I'm not interested in a debate, but I'd have more respect for those who campaigned for the ban if they'd put half as much effort into preventing or at least reducing the far more gruesome way foxes die like bad shots and snares. Let alone the greater suffering that goes on in the name of farming and pest control.
And to whoever asked, no I wouldn't particularly like my daughter to witness a pack of hounds ripping a fox up, but given the more realistic choice of watching a hound kill a fox quickly then rag the body round as a pack, rather than let her see half dead, wounded, emaciated slowly dying foxes I'd rather she saw the hounds thanks. And I'd take the hounds over the majority of the food industry too, or poisoned vermin, or those evil glue traps

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 17:32:05

And yes the difference between those who buy battery farmed food, and those who hunt is that generally the former are hypocrites, the second generally aren't

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 11-Jul-15 17:38:29

But those arguments are predicated on the assumption that those who are against hunting are primarily motivated by an animal rights agenda: that's not necessarily so. I'm against hunting because I think it's a distasteful and barbaric anachronism which was rightly consigned to history and shouldn't come back.

I don't live in the country: I don't really see how I can do anything about bad snares etc, or demand that people become better shots. But I can be opposed to a hobby that is based on having a whole load of fun in pursuit of an animal.

MrsTerryPratchett Sat 11-Jul-15 17:40:10

It was banned, after decades of campaigning, it should stay banned.

Brian May is neither here nor there.

soapboxqueen Sat 11-Jul-15 17:47:04

I'd take an hypocrite with blinkers on over someone who gets their thrills from watching something suffer any day.

There is a big difference between knowing something happens and being there, watching it and enjoying it.

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 18:03:43

Eating a factory farmed chicken is no more necessary than following a hunt is for survival, both are done purely for pleasure. And the hunt followers are neither here nor there when it comes to the decision to kill that fox, that will happen anyway. Whereas no chicken would be bred and killed in vile conditions in the first place if nobody wanted to eat it. Also the ratio of dead fox to human follower is significantly smaller than the ratio of dead chicken to human consumer. Not witnessing a cheap chickens suffering though doesn't make anyone less cruel, just less informed and I'm of the mind cruelty is more likely where it's not witnessed and openly acknowledged. Hence the misconception hunting with hounds = cruel, but rifle = humane. A rifle in the hands of someone who knows exactly what they're doing is more humane but it's not in the public eye that humanely shooting a fox outright isn't that easy and plenty get it wrong

frostyfingers Sat 11-Jul-15 18:11:54

*I'm against the amount of govt time + money spent on this bloody subject, given the percentage of the population who indulge in it.

This with bells on. What a bloody waste of time. Just so Dave can keep his chums happy. *

Did you think this when Tony Blair's government spent more time debating this than the Iraq War and used the Parliamentary Act to force it through in 2004?

I thought then, and think now that there are more important issues to be discussing.

JackSkellington Sat 11-Jul-15 18:20:43

Regardless of Brian May, it should stay banned. And Scotland should be following the same laws England and Wales currently have in place, although ideally there should be a complete ban which is actively enforced (because not all of the idiots who go ahead and do it anyway are prosecuted).

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 18:26:09

Lets be honest though, it never got banned cos tony Blair cared about it one way or the other, he just needed a scapegoat to distract attention from the bigger fuck ups he made, and because hunting is mistakenly seen as a toff pursuit, the 'nasty upper classes' made a convenient one. No different to Cameron making benefit claimants the scapegoats now, because of course austerity is the fault of the work shy living on taxpayers money, he's just distracting attention from his fuck ups, not actually concerned about the average tax payer

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 18:26:51

Lurked and Frost I agree with you both. Too many hypocrites going on and on about the cruelty of hunting before sitting down to gorge on intensively reared meat. Factory farming is vile. People know this (anyone remember one of the TV chefs doing a series of programmes?) but are still happy to smugly boast about buying 3 chickens for 5 pounds and eat cheap bacon from a pig that was reared in a small enclosure.

For the majority of anti hunters the whole issue is their perceived notion that the only people who hunt are "toffs".

TheCrowFromBelow Sat 11-Jul-15 18:32:23

frosty yes, I did.

The strength of feeling that foxhunting generates has always astonished me.
I am not pro-hunting, but I do find it odd that people who will happily eat cheap chicken get so enraged about it.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 11-Jul-15 18:34:13

One poster has mentioned 'mummy's horse': I don't see a class issue on this thread other than that?

Some people eat battery chicken , for a number of reasons of which I imagine affordability is chief. They don't get jollies off it though. And I'm not sure what the correlation between people who eat battery chicken and people who oppose hunting with hounds is: does anyone know, or is this just a convenient red herring?

schloss Sat 11-Jul-15 18:35:03

I wrote this on the other thread but worth saying here as well. The debate is to amend the current legislation to bring it in line with Scotland.

More foxes are shot and snared now. Fox Cubs are left to starve to death when the mother is killed by those who shoot and snare foxes. This is cruelty and yet was as a direct result of the current "ban" however this is never commented on?

TheCrowFromBelow Sat 11-Jul-15 18:36:59

kardamyli it was Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall and I think that one of his crew members cried when they saw the chickens in their barn, yet she still went and bought 2 for her tea. don't get me started on danish bacon...

& sorry OP - YANBU Brian May shouldn't have been all sweary.

Toughasoldboots Sat 11-Jul-15 18:37:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jasonandyawegunorts Sat 11-Jul-15 18:41:28

Something is wrong with Brian in recent years, I don't know if it's his age or what but he's outright lying about things.

TheCrowFromBelow Sat 11-Jul-15 18:45:05

I'm not sure what the correlation between people who eat battery chicken and people who oppose hunting with hounds is

The correlation may be very small, but one of the key arguments against hunting is that it is animal cruelty for human's pleasure.

However, people eat cheap meat that has been farmed in horrible conditions because they like eating meat; meat isn't actually a daily necessity (although I know huge amount of MNers disagree with this!).

I find it odd that those same people can gloss over this fact yet get so hung up on hunting, and not about starving fox cubs. It's an exceptionally emotive issue.

But I am totally derailing OPs thread.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 18:48:17

Sorry, I didn't me kemp yield clear. My point is that people say they want to ban fox hunting on animal cruelty grounds but many of those same people are very happy to eat factory farmed meat and chicken. Factory farming is inherently cruel, so to me those people are hypocrites. In the days before factory farming chicken was seen as a luxury item by most people, certainly not something affordable to be eaten every week.

There is no need to eat as much meat as we do in the UK, there are far better and cheaper forms of protein to be had so those who justify the cruelty in factory farming on the grounds of need are, in my opinion, talking shit.

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 18:49:18

I've no statistics on it, but given the majority of the population eats cheap meat, and the majority are against hunting I'd say there was a fair chance many people are in both majority groups. Also if I add up those I've met that are either vegan or produce their own dairy and meat (cos we all know the cheap dairy industry is no better than the cheap meat one right?) or buy only free range from the farmer type food ( not the rspca freedom food bollocks) they're very much in the minority.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 18:49:22

Bloody ipad! Above should say, "sorry I didn't make myself clear"

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 18:52:52

Are there any arguments against fox hunting other than animal cruelty? I suppose there is the "it's only for toffs" argument but that just seems petty minded rather than a rational reason for banning something.

TiggyD Sat 11-Jul-15 18:57:09

"Do bad bad things happen to everyone who eats battery chickens or beer from cows who've been kept in sheds all their lives?" - A townie by any chance?

SweetAndFullOfGrace Sat 11-Jul-15 19:03:52

The reason they're discussing bringing back fox hunting is because it gives the media (and a lot of other people apparently) a nice simple target to froth at the mouth about, which neatly diverts attention from what the government is actually doing. Lynton Crosby is past master at this, he used to do exactly the same thing for the Australian Howard government.

And you're all falling for it hmm

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 19:04:40

kardymyli I think the toffs thing is a huge part of it myself because of the huge misconception it's only an upper class pursuit. Otherwise why is lamping which is no different but traditionally a lower class pursuit all but ignored? Plus the fact the majority of the population live in towns and it's not rare for their only knowledge of hunting to come from propaganda

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 19:10:01

Er no Tiggy, a typo perhaps from an iPad that has spent all its working life in the country. Perhaps it's hankering after beer instead of cows.

TiggyD Sat 11-Jul-15 19:11:58

Always thought those Apple products were probably alcoholics.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 19:14:19

Sweet, im not falling for anything and I'm sure most other people aren't either. I have no objection to fox hunting (though haven't hunted since I was a teenager) and think it is a lot more humane than battery farming. I also have no objection to the welfare cuts, which is I assume what you mean by "what the government is actually doing". Let me know if I've misunderstood what you meant.

DawnOfTheDoggers Sat 11-Jul-15 19:17:14

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Twinkie1 Sat 11-Jul-15 19:18:13

Brian May is in the same ranks as Bonio and Geldof, what else do you expect from him?

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 19:23:47

It's killing animals as entertainment. It's up there with dog fighting and bear baiting.

JudgeJudy79 Sat 11-Jul-15 19:32:55

So what are people's views on shooting? Fishing?

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 19:52:27

Fishing appears to me to be quite cruel, in that I always think a fish out of water must be like an animal deprived of oxygen. Don't see the fun in it either as it looks pretty boring - but clearly lots of people do like fishing. Doesn't seem any less cruel than fox hunting. Shooting, not all that cruel as I think the majority of birds will die as soon as they are shot. On all the shoots I have been on I've seen very few birds alive on the ground once shot. Definitely a lot less cruel than battery farmed chickens! And yes, the birds do get eaten.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 19:55:31

Backforthis, the entertainment in fox hunting is, for most people, nothing to do with the actual kill. Unless you've ridden a good horse over good hunting country you may not understand what that's like. You should take up riding (if you don't already ride) and go out with your local hunt to see what it's like.

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 20:00:12

I've ridden. I don't want to hunt. If it were really about the chase then hunts would be too busy having a great time chasing laid scent trails to bother foxes.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 20:08:50

Backforthis, I always enjoyed hunting just as much whether or not we caught a fox. As long as we chased at least one fox for a decent period the fun was the same.

I havent been hunting for years so don't know what it's been like since the ban. Maybe it just isn't the same, in the same way only being allowed to catch plastic fish would be for people who like fishing. If you don't want to go hunting I strongly suggest you visit a factory farm instead. Then you will hopefully want to campaign to improve the lives of millions of animals.

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 20:11:02

A) I don't eat meat
B) Why are you trying to equate the farming of animals for food with the killing of animals for entertainment?

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 20:34:18

Back, I'm pleased to hear that you don't eat meat. I rarely do, and then only if I knew the animal, where it lived and the names and occupations of its parents (ok that last bit isn't true).

If your concern is the killing of animals for entertainment do you complain about sport fishing. The reason I equate factory farming of animals to fox hunting is that if the concern is animal cruelty the former is much much more cruel than the latter. Neither are necessary (you are proof of that as you don't eat meat and presumably suffer no ill effects). It seems completely arbitrary to me to decide that one form of unnecessary animal cruelty should be banned but another, which is more cruel,in that it involves prolonged lifelong suffering, should not.

TheOriginalSteamingNit Sat 11-Jul-15 20:41:37

I don't campaign about either. One is in the news because parliament might vote to reintroduce it and one isn't, that's why people are talking about it.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 20:47:06

That's true Nit. And a great shame that so many people's priorities are such that they will rant and rave about the quick death of a (probably elderly) fox but couldn't care less about the miserable life of the pig that gave them the bacon in their bacon butty. Provided it's cheap they just don't care. Very sad that people have their priorities so skewed.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 20:50:28

And to answer the OPs original post, Brian May is a gigantic cock the same as the self righteous but tax dodging Bonio and that idiot Geldof.

Jasonandyawegunorts Sat 11-Jul-15 20:52:25

couldn't care less about the miserable life of the pig

If i was treated like that pig i would probably want to die.

So it works out okay in my head.

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 20:55:23

People have always used animals for food. It's commonly accepted as necessary. We try to raise welfare standards. Have regulations about how animals should be kept and killed. Torturing and killing animals for entertainment is something that the vast majority of people are against.

A tiny minority want to kill foxes for 'sport'. I'm sure you'd find people who would like to be involved with bear baiting, dog fighting, bull baiting etc. Is it ok because there are already animals being ill treated? Was it wrong for people to campaign against the testing of makeup or cleaning products on animals because drug companies would still use them to test drugs on?

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 21:03:49

Back, if you've never been on a fox hunt I don't see how you can know that it involves, in your words, torture. I think you've just gone along with the rhetoric and self righteous smuggery of the "only toffs go hunting" brigade. In my experience there is no torture involved in hunting a fox. The majority of young healthy foxes aren't caught by the hunt and live to enjoy another free range day. Much more torture is involved in shooting where it is very common for a fox to be injured, but not killed. Those foxes must surely die a slow agonising death.

You sound lovely Jason. However, I'm not surprised, all most people care about when it comes to food is how cheap it is.

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 21:08:16

Posted too soon. Again Back, animal testing involves the prolonged suffering of animals (just like factory farming). Fox hunting does not involve the prolonged suffering of animals. If foxes aren't hunted they will be shot (otherwise they have a bad habit of trying to eat all the small farm animals which aren't locked up in sheds). As I've explained above far more suffering is caused to foxes by shooting than hunting.

Butkin Sat 11-Jul-15 21:10:05

Delighted that most of the MPs in our region are going to vote to amend the Hunting Bill - should never have been banned in the first place. So sad when it seems to develop into a class war issue. I'd say only about 10 per cent of the people who hunt with our pack are really well off. Most are just normal folk and there are quite a few people who you would assume would vote Labour if that party weren't anti.

MaidOfStars Sat 11-Jul-15 21:12:23

OP, the second thread on foxhunting + Bruan May in as many days....and the second I've replied to.

For reference, he didn't call anyone '(a) fucking liar(s)'.

And given your blankness re: the Srebenica section, I'm now assuming you didn't actually watch the episode of Newsnight in question.

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 21:15:12

So would dog fighting be ok if it was really mismatched and over quickly? Would bear baiting be ok if the bear was old and sick?

Kardamyli Sat 11-Jul-15 21:21:10

Back, your arguments are getting quite desperate now! No, I don't think organised dog fights or bear baiting would be ok in the circumstances you describe. The difference is that neither animal would be shot as an alternative to dog fights or bear baiting as a means of population control.

Think I've taken up too much space already on this thread. I've said my bit and am now off to bed.

Toughasoldboots Sat 11-Jul-15 21:30:35

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 21:40:00

The other fact most people miss is that the vast majority of those following the hunt on horses really aren't there to see a fox killed. They are there for the riding and for some the social aspect. Riding on land that for the most part is only allowed on the basis the hunt staff ( not the followers) are providing a service. And the hunt staff need the followers for the cost of upkeep. Which is why despite the ban many people trail hunt, because it's still providing the riding. And why long before any talk of the ban there were drag hunts

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 21:55:08

You raised the fact that it's over quickly and it targets the weaker animals. I was wondering if you thought that made it somehow less cruel.

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 22:07:11

Humane trapping followed by shooting guarantees a quick kill too, but no one gets a day out from it.

BertrandRussell Sat 11-Jul-15 22:26:43

"Are there any arguments against fox hunting other than animal cruelty?"
It's not primarily about animal cruelty for me. It's about the deeply unpleasant idea of people of whatever class indulging in a ritual which involves the killing of an animal. Foxes need to be controlled. Fox hunting is a very inefficient and distasteful way of doing it. Which reflects very badly on humanity. Nobody condones bull fighting. But that too is an archaic ritual killing of an animal.

dani002 Sat 11-Jul-15 22:34:12

I get it that foxes need to be controlled but don't go making a sport out of it. Thats just fucked up.

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 22:34:37

Trapping, however physically humane we think it is, is far more mentally stressful and frightening than hunting from the foxes point of view. At least running from hounds it's got an outlet for the adrenaline produced through fear, in a trap it hasn't got that outlet. The very fear of being trapped is why animals will chew their own limbs off or mortally wound themselves in an attempt to get free from some types of traps. Like mice do sometimes with the glue traps sold in many shops that the population in general don't object to as barbaric. I'm not a wild animal but give me the choice of running with someone after me wanting to kill me, or leave me in a cell waiting for it and I know what I'd choose. It also doesn't take into account that a young healthy fox has very high odds on getting away from hounds, but traps don't allow selection. Not just unfair short term but detrimental to the population as a whole.
A trained marksman with the skill to stalk, and select the foxes that do need culling, and kill outright every time then yes I'd agree is the most humane. But in reality shooting is too unregulated to go like that

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 22:36:50

So's halal meat (real halal where it's not pre stunned) but nobody is calling to ban that.

Backforthis Sat 11-Jul-15 22:37:11

You don't have to shoot every fox you find in a trap!

dani002 Sat 11-Jul-15 22:38:04

What has halal meat got to do with killing for sport?

southeastastra Sat 11-Jul-15 22:40:58

tell prince philip that using the word fuck is frowned up

it's bloody barbaric that we are still hunting with hounds now

bloody upper class pursuits they need to learn to live in the real world

SonceyD0g Sat 11-Jul-15 22:41:14

I don't see the point in even arguing about it. It an unenforcable law. Fox hunting has carried on exactly the same as it did before the ban. I suspect the government is trying to pass another law at the same time which it would rather not see in the media!

Lurkedforever1 Sat 11-Jul-15 22:45:31

backforthis if you aren't trapping to shoot them then it really is pointless cruelty.
dani because someone mentioned fox hunting being an archaic ritual killing. Which is to my mind is exactly the same as halal. Both involve killing an animal that needs to be killed, but neither uses what in the modern world is the most humane means available because the old way is the cultural tradition.

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