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We're giving their kids lots of help to stop them going to our universities.

(71 Posts)
Taliesinwest Tue 05-May-15 10:40:06

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ev1lEdna Tue 05-May-15 10:42:21

Could you elaborate?

Owllady Tue 05-May-15 10:44:44

confused

Penguinotterfoxbadger Tue 05-May-15 10:45:21

Eh?

Taliesinwest Tue 05-May-15 10:50:21

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ihavenonameonhere Tue 05-May-15 10:54:12

But the fees are not payable til you earn a wage.

Also it's easier to go to uni now than ever brhore which is part of the reason they have to now charge

Cherriesandapples Tue 05-May-15 10:55:24

YABU! My husband was a lecturer in a university and whereas when he did same course 20 years previously, there were 30 places and everyone got a job (specific industry) now there are 100+ places and only 30 or so will get a job. The others will do technical roles in the industry but skills for this could be easily acquired on the job and without huge amounts of debts!

namechange0dq8 Tue 05-May-15 10:56:20

I'm sure they can find somewhere in the budget in bring down university fees, which are quite modest for families of the likes of Clegg and Cameron.

They're zero for everyone at the point of education. You only repay the fees if you get a decent job afterwards. Family income has nothing to do with university fees, as there is no reason to pay them and it's the softest loan you'll ever have.

The issue of living costs for children of middle-income families is more serious, but appears to get people less worked up, not least because even though the current system is iniquitous, it's actually better for most people than the grant system at any point back to the mid-1970s (people who claim there was a time when "everyone" got a grant should cite their facts, because the grant was been meanstested from the early 1970s onwards).

mumsneedwine Tue 05-May-15 10:58:01

Labour Party brought in tuition fees. And can't see anywhere that they plan to lower fees. One of the few 'good' things that this lot have done in education is to mean fees are paid back after you graduate - the previous lot made you pay upfront.
I'd love it to be few like in my day (I have 5), but can't see it happening. And it is possible if you are middle income (low incomes have it paid for) - the kids will probably never repay it all.
Don't like any politicians and think they should keep their noses out if education, but don't think Labour should get away with being made out to be great. They started this mess

dreamingofsun Tue 05-May-15 10:58:11

if fees are 9k (which less face it they generally are) then a proportion of that fee goes towards people from families on lower incomes. so when my kids are students they will be putting towards the funding of the non-wealthy kids. they are also disadvantaged in applying to some of the top schools in our area because they aren't on free school meals.

perhaps you could elaborate on all the 'lots of help' my kids have had, as i don't see any, except for the extra out of school tuition i've had to fund. but then a lot of lower income families could fund that instead of some of their lifestyle choices.

namechange0dq8 Tue 05-May-15 10:58:22

when he did same course 20 years previously, there were 30 places and everyone got a job (specific industry) now there are 100+ places and only 30 or so will get a job.

So we should make university admission harder, to increase the value of degrees for those lucky enough to get in? And people who argue this think they're progressive?

Suppose you reduced the number of university places by a factor of three, taking us back to the early 1980s. Do you think the average parental income of those students getting these now rare places would be (a) higher (b) the same or (c) lower than now? Bear in mind that university access from low-income families is at historic highs now.

mumsneedwine Tue 05-May-15 10:59:14

Few !?! Free - but never going to happen

Ev1lEdna Tue 05-May-15 11:04:42

I have no intention of voting Conservative (or Lib Dem this time after the coalition) however, I think that for quite a number of years far too MUCH emphasis has been placed on university education to the exclusion of other career paths and this hasn't been very successful. I think university is easier to get to than it used to be and having worked in universities in one capacity or another for most of my working life I can assure you there are a number of students there who would be better off pursuing less academic career paths and indeed, would be far more successful in the long run for doing that.

At present we have large numbers of graduates unable to get work or unable to get work at the level they should (or perceive they should) and a deficit of people in skilled work. Less emphasis on a purely academic path is a good thing generally, in my opinion. Not every person is, or needs to be, academic we SHOULD be placing more value on other skills as well. I don't know if their policies are to 'keep people in their place' as you have interpreted or a more balanced look at the job market and people's varying abilities.

My cynical side leans to Cameron wanting people in 'their place' but rationally I can see there isn't anything wrong with placing less importance on a university education for all.

lem73 Tue 05-May-15 11:06:18

I think you are completely wrong. Firstly the economy needs well trained workers with sound skills to compete internationally. I also think the expansion of university places has led to thousands of students getting themselves in debt and wasting three years of their lives studying for degrees which do not lead to a career. My dh and I are both graduates and will be able to help ds (15) financially go to university but I am strongly encouraging him to look at all options when he leaves school. I don't want him to be one of the many unemployed graduates. I would like to see many more quality apprenticeships available especially in fields like IT which is what he is interested in.
It was a Conservative prime minister (Major) who encouraged the expansion of university places by granting charters to many new universities. I know a lot of people who were very average academically who went to study subjects like politics or psychology at one of these universities because they thought a degree by itself would open doors. They were very disappointed to find this was not the case.

madreloco Tue 05-May-15 11:09:34

Well lots of kids go to university who really shouldn't be there. Somewhere along the way we've got so obsessed with the notion that everyone should be able to go to university (as in not just the rich) that we've forgotten that they should have the ability to do so.
Therefore a university education has become so down valued as to be meaningless for many. We absolutely should be providing for alternatives to university and value them just as much.

namechange0dq8 Tue 05-May-15 11:12:39

My cynical side leans to Cameron wanting people in 'their place' but rationally I can see there isn't anything wrong with placing less importance on a university education for all.

I've never met anyone with a degree who's advanced that argument who has encouraged their own children to take these alleged alternative paths. The argument appears to be "university is perfect for my child, but it's not for everyone --it's just a handy coincidence my child is one of the ones it's right for--".

The effect of reducing the number of university places would be to increase social stratification, because the cultural capital of the already wealthy and educated will make access to that reduced number of places almost impossible. So long as people are honest about that, but they rarely are. It's like the "bring back grammar schools as engines of mobility" argument. They weren't anything like the engine of mobility that Nigel Farage the rose-tinted spectacle gang make out, but even if you accept arguendo that they were, that was in an era where fewer than 5% of parents, if that, had degree. What would happen now is that graduate parents would get an almost complete lock on the available places. The same would happen were university admission to be harder (and, indeed, is already happening in the more selective course/institution pairs).

StellaAlpina Tue 05-May-15 11:14:10

I'm in two minds about this...on one hand I think education is a public good and everyone who wants to go to uni should be able to, on the other hand I think are 50% of people really academic enough for it? Would they gain more from an apprenticeship/on the job training etc.

I suppose part of it depends on what is the better 'gain' for the individual, for some I think the 3 years gentle introduction into adult life/living away from your parents for the first time might actually be the better gain even if it doesn't particulary improve their employability.

Even though I'm not using my degree (red brick uni, traditional subject so nothing new fangled) I'm so glad I went.

Madge51 Tue 05-May-15 11:24:11

My daughter is studying for her MA now and setting up a business, but many who left uni with good degrees last year are struggling to find a good job...some are on 0 hrs contracts (no hope of getting a mortgage) or worse still, doing internships , that is working for expenses only, no wage, to supposedly gain experience although the job promised at the end of it never seems to appear. Remember while in the EU (sorry but I feel quite strongly about this) your children will be competing against candidates from 27 other European countries. The point is, education really helps our children to question and reason and uni is a valuable experience, but where's the job at the end of it?

Idontseeanydragons Tue 05-May-15 11:28:10

I think increasing the chances of children unable or unwilling to manage going to University to gain experience and a job in the real world can only be a good thing.
Less pressure on our young people to follow one strict path into further education and to view anything else as failure would mean the drop out rate would likely fall as well.

Ev1lEdna Tue 05-May-15 11:31:57

I've never met anyone with a degree who's advanced that argument who has encouraged their own children to take these alleged alternative paths. The argument appears to be "university is perfect for my child, but it's not for everyone --it's just a handy coincidence my child is one of the ones it's right for--".

Well, I have more than one degree and I DO believe that. You may not have met people with that belief but they do exist - we are not unicorns.

I do not think that everyone should go to university. I have watched students resitting assessments and failing and knowing that their strengths may not lie in academia but elsewhere. In my own family my sibling is much more successful than I am and doesn't have any degrees. University is NOT the be all and end all. If my children have talents in areas than academia you can be damn sure I'll be encouraging it. I have no idea if they will or not - they are still in primary school but I would hate them to waste years in university when they could be pursuing something more productive and suited to them.

I think idealistically that university should be about merit, those who are capable should be able to go but all too often it is about who can afford to go. Realistically I know that even if you judge on merit the more wealthy can be favoured, we have a hierarchical education system, private schools, grammar schools, private tutors; there is no doubt that money can buy you advantages in education and no, that isn't fair at all. I DO think that those who deserve to be at university regardless of background or financial position should be able to go and fees shouldn't be a barrier. I'd like to see fees reduced but I know that universities businesses as well as places of education and it isn't going to happen. I don't think university places should be restricted for people. I do, however, think that we should place far less emphasis on a university education being the only education of value. It simply isn't true and it isn't realistic for all.

I'm, admittedly at al loss to know the answer to the problem that money=advantage in education. I just wish the idea of any university education being of more value than another form of education would be less prevalent.

namechange0dq8 Tue 05-May-15 11:40:32

Well, I have more than one degree and I DO believe that. You may not have met people with that belief but they do exist - we are not unicorns.

I've met people with that belief. I've just never met anyone willing to implement it. Your children are, you say, still in primary school. Call us back in ten years.

funnyossity Tue 05-May-15 11:41:33

namechange , meet me! I am another one who pushes high quality apprenticeships. If you are in a technical field just do the sums.

funnyossity Tue 05-May-15 11:45:39

Just remembered also a friend has a very well qualified son who has just got a paid apprenticeship with a top media company and is "taking a break" from his high tariff university course. We are all thrilled for him tbh.

Ev1lEdna Tue 05-May-15 11:46:13

I've met people with that belief. I've just never met anyone willing to implement it. Your children are, you say, still in primary school. Call us back in ten years

Patronising smile ok, will do.

As I explained this isn't merely based on my education but also on working with students in education and watching them struggle and knowing the jobs aren't out there. I appreciate your desperate need to be right about this but people do have opinions which differ to your own.

funnyossity Tue 05-May-15 11:48:57

Cherries I guess you can't be more specific but I recognise the type of scenario your DH describes.

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