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To hope we look back on this in horror?

(675 Posts)
Fanfeckintastic Tue 03-Feb-15 23:31:28

I'm in Ireland and recently watched a documentary about Irish women going to England for abortions because it's illegal over here. I was saying to DP that hopefully one day we'll be able to look back on this with the same horror we do at the fact interracial couples were once not allowed to marry, homophobia etc but he doesn't think it's comparable because interracial marriages and homosexuality etc involves consenting adults. In my opinion abortion involves a consenting adult, that's it.

I'm not saying they're the exact same thing but am I unreasonable to hope that one day we'll look back at the fact it was illegal in my country to have a choice about what we do with our own uterus?

vinegarandbrownpaper Tue 03-Feb-15 23:33:19

I am still shocked by this. Its odd as Ireland isn't as medieval as this law makes it sound.

Fanfeckintastic Tue 03-Feb-15 23:41:31

Being gay was illegal here until the 90's. I HAVE to get my child christened to get her into a school within an hour of our house (I live in Dublin!!) I'm so ashamed of my lovely country sometimes.

Devora Tue 03-Feb-15 23:43:08

YANBU!

Staywithme Tue 03-Feb-15 23:50:08

I listened to a bit of a discussion about this on local radio and the presenter was asking the guy opposed to abortion about women who gad been raped. He answered along the lines of the foetus being the innocent in these circumstances and should not be aborted. The interviewer pulled him on his terminology and he tried to worm his way out if it by saying the foetus was the 'most innocent' of the two. This is typical of the attitude of the people opposed to abortion in NI. The woman is merely a vessel for an unborn child, which if course they'll do feck all for once it's born. We, as women in NI, need saving from ourselves don't ya know! hmm

FarelyKnuts Wed 04-Feb-15 00:08:18

I think we are very very sadly still a long way off from Abortion ever being legal here. No government has ever wanted to touch the issue.
Look at the so called Catholic wankers they can trot out to oppose gay marriage at the moment.

Jewels234 Wed 04-Feb-15 00:09:11

There was a debate about it on R4 woman's hour last week. The Northern Iris lady was arguing that even if a woman had been raped, there was still no grounds for abortion. It made me so angry I had to switch off.

Latara Wed 04-Feb-15 00:10:32

I'm English and I remember when rape in marriage was still legal, and the big arguments over that (it was about 1993 ish and I was about 14?).

I do think that the Irish would look back on the fact that abortion was illegal the same way - except that I can't see a time when it will be legal unless there are radical changes in govt or something?

FarelyKnuts Wed 04-Feb-15 00:17:47

Re: rape in marriage... As an example of how slow change is here, it took 11 years from when it was made illegal for the first actual conviction. 11 fucking years. We are not going to see abortion in Ireland in my life time and I doubt it will be in my daughter's either sad

Aridane Wed 04-Feb-15 09:39:36

I have listened to some of the US abortion debates - and the more extreme of the 'pro life' (^no abortion, no excepiont^) positions is staggering - ie no abortion for rape, for incest, for ectopic pregnancy, for conditions incompatible with life / ultra sever disability (eg anencephaly), or where the mother would be undergoing chemotherapy. As regards an exception for saving the life of the mother - well, that hardly ever happens, does it? - just an excuse - so really a question of 'not never but hardly ever'...

Staywithme Wed 04-Feb-15 16:53:10

I have listened to some of the US abortion debates - and the more extreme of the 'pro life' (^no abortion, no excepiont^) positions is staggering - ie no abortion for rape, for incest, for ectopic pregnancy, for conditions incompatible with life / ultra sever disability (eg anencephaly), or where the mother would be undergoing chemotherapy. As regards an exception for saving the life of the mother

Sadly you'll hear the same arguments being used in Northern Ireland, Aridane. Women here, still have to go to England in cases where there is rape, incest, conditions incompatible with life, sever disability. Not sure about the chemo or saving the mother's life.

The laws are so strict the doctors are afraid of supporting the woman's right to an abortion in case they break the law. If a woman goes to England for an abortion and someone goes with them then the friend/partner ect is breaking the law. It's a bloody joke and the bible bashers are in charge so it's unlikely to change any time soon.

bumbleymummy Wed 04-Feb-15 16:58:02

I'm hoping one day we'll look back on abortion in horror.

Abortion is allowed to save the mother's life. Always has been.

Surgery for cancer can usually be done during pregnancy. Some chemotherapy drugs are suitable for use during second and third trimester.

Thedonkeyontherainbowsaidwoof Wed 04-Feb-15 17:15:32

I think anti-abortion views cannot be compared to homophobia or racism.

I'm anti-abortion; but wouldn't go as far as bumbleymummy in saying that I hope that one day we will look back on abortion with horror. I don't condemn women who've had an abortion because it's currently legal.

I do think abortion is wrong in most circumstances, with the exception of pregnancies which are the result of rape, where it is necessary to save a mothers life, or where a child is unlikely to live after birth because of a severe illness.

That being said I'd like to see an abortion free world where

. . . all contraception including condoms are free
. . . women are allowed to have their tubes tied at their say so and do not have to persuade a doctor into doing it.
. . . women are not stigmatised for surrendering babies at birth if that is the choice they make. (Men who walk away from children never seem to get the same amount of stick that women do)
. . . open adoptions becoming more common in which women might choose to give up a child at birth can still have a role in a child's life.
. . . single mothers are valued, their contribution to society is recognised and they are not stigmatised as 'scroungers'.

For the record I'm not a Christian and my views on abortion are not religiously motivated.

LadyRainicorn Wed 04-Feb-15 17:17:28

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

bumbleymummy Wed 04-Feb-15 17:20:56

I would add to that..

-a world where women are not raped
-or at the very least a world where women who are raped are not terrified to come forward and report it so that they can receive treatment and don't become pregnant, that those reports are taken seriously and that the men who attack them are properly punished.

bumbleymummy Wed 04-Feb-15 17:24:08

Thanks for your lovely post LadyRain. That woman died because of medical misadventure. Her miscarriage was badly managed, she was not monitored and therefore the signs that she was deteriorating were not noticed. With the failings in her duty of care, even with an abortion, she may have died.

KidLorneRoll Wed 04-Feb-15 17:26:41

Abortion will always be a necessary evil. No-one likes it, but any society who thinks it is better to stick their fingers in their ears and goes lalalala rather than face up to the reality of it needs to grow up.

ginmakesitallok Wed 04-Feb-15 17:29:54

Abortion is also illegal for the majority of cases in northern Ireland, I.e. part of the UK. It's disgraceful.

AWholeLottaNosy Wed 04-Feb-15 17:32:26

Unbelievable really that this is the case in a modern 21st century country...sad

Ifyourawizardwhydouwearglasses Wed 04-Feb-15 17:35:20

Hmmm.

I'm anti abortion. I don't think that it is the mothers choice, as it's not her life that she is ending. So the laws in Ireland don't bother me at all.

I expect to be flamed for having this view though...

NeverFinishWhatYouStarted Wed 04-Feb-15 17:35:51

If you don't want an abortion, bumbleymummy, you are absolutely free not to have one. However, every woman should be allowed make her own choice on the issue as it pertains to her body and circumstances.

Abortion is not a necessary "evil". It is a medical/surgical procedure that is currently unavailable to Irish women.

NeverFinishWhatYouStarted Wed 04-Feb-15 17:37:13

And what if it wasn't "the mother's choice" that a pregnancy was started, IfYoureAWiz?

IEatBadgers Wed 04-Feb-15 17:37:49

I agree completely. At the very least termination for medical reasons needs to be allowed now. Some of the stories from the women who are speaking up on this matter are horrific. It makes me very angry that my country treats women this.

Ifyourawizardwhydouwearglasses Wed 04-Feb-15 17:43:31

And what if it wasn't "the mother's choice" that a pregnancy was started, IfYoureAWiz?

Then she can give the baby up for adoption if she cannot cope with bringing it up for whatever reason - but the fact remains, that a life has begun and I don't believe that it is anyone's right to end it simply because it is inconvenient to them.

InanimateCarbonRod Wed 04-Feb-15 17:45:07

Ah good old Ireland. You can abort pregnancies in cows, dogs and cats but if it's a woman .... Luckily it's not so archaic that lifesaving abortions are not given otherwise I would be dead.

Unfortunately it's a throwback from the most evil cult in the world having absolute power in Ireland.

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