to think maybe we should just abolish state education altogether

[Caronaim]

Having left teaching after 20 years, I can look back at it a bit more objectively now I am out of it.

It is a total and utter disaster zone.

The children who do well are the ones who are supported at home, if they don't get that, nothing that happens in school will compensate.

much of what happens in schools is assessment rather than teaching, and teachers spend more time recording the results of assessments than they do even doing the assessing.

Records are often not even true, you have to cook so much of it. Records are extensive, but much of what I spent my working life recording has never been read back, either by myself or anyone else.

I ended up working up to 18-20 hours a day, of which 2-3 hours max was actually educationally beneficial.

Some children behave well, but can't learn because other children whos parents don't care about education, behave badly.

So how about we close all state schools, and give parents the money in the form of education vouchers instead. parents could buy resources, or pay for tutoring, or club together to hire a classroom, or apply to have their vouchers redeemed into actual money to allow a parent to stop work to home educate, with certain conditions.

more people would be able to afford private school, and more private schools would open.

parents who encourage their children to behave badly at school would have to deal with that behaviour at home.

Children who do well at school would probably do even better at home, and children who do badly wouldn't do any worse.

The country would save vast amounts of money towards paying off the national debt.

[DoraGora]

Or remove the badly behaved children.

[Llareggub]

I see where you are coming from. What you haven't really taken into account is that the state education system evolved from pretty much the situation you describe but was found to be lacking.

I would not like to abolish state education. I think we just need to think hard about the pointless bureaucracy.

[TwitterWooooo]

Yabu. I'm living proof that your argument is inaccurate about children doing well are supported at home. My parents didn't give a shit if I did well at school, one was illiterate in fact. I have done very well if I do say so myself. The children who are not supported need inspiration from elsewhere. Furthermore it's wrong to assume only the children whose parents support them will do well.

[Caronaim]

It is just very difficult to explain in a short post exactly how fucked up the whole system is. I know it isn't really practical to abolish it, but thinking about it just makes me feel so angry and hopeless! It is all so stupid and wasteful. It isn't doing children any good, it is costing millions and it is abusing staff at all levels.

[DoraGora]

I'm not sure how possible it is to think about pointless bureaucracy, given that the state education system is run by a bureaucracy. The private education system isn't.

[Caronaim]

twitterwoo, I'm glad you did well, but I'm sure you would have anyway.

[Iggly]

Or take the politicians out of the classroom.

They need to back the fuck off. Instead they micro manage. I mean, seriously, Michael give deciding what books people should read as part of the curriculum?!

You don't get politicians telling doctors what treatments to use do you so they should leave it to the teaching experts.

[betweenmarchandmay]

I think YABU as well.

I can understand the frustration of teaching children who behave poorly but I have never worked anywhere (and I've worked in some grim schools!) where these children were the majority. There were plenty of delightful children from homes who didn't value education or learning as well.

And it isn't just children who's parents don't care about education who behave badly.

[wobblyweebles]

My kids are in state school in another country and I think the system's working pretty well TBH.

We do choose to pay higher taxes so our class sizes are much smaller. Also the education system is not controlled by central government so there's much less red tape. Also parents get a say in the budget and what it's spent on. The school spends much less time on enforcing things like uniform and 'proper' lunches and more time on educating.

My husband was a teacher in the UK before we emigrated, so he has a first hand picture of how different the system is here.

[LaurieFairyCake]

Because state education is really cheap per pupil - it's only about £1200 per pupil I think

You can't possible redeem enough in the form of vouchers to pay for someone to not work and educate their own children

[DoraGora]

Good is a relative term. The Victorian children who preceded it were in the coal mines. I'm fairly sure that a goodly few of their modern counterparts would be drug mules or gang victims if they weren't in school. They might not get to Oxford via the local school. But, they probably won't reach an early grave, either.

[Heels99]

Why were you working 18-20 hours per day? Something is going wrong if as a teacher you are working 20 hours per day surely. lesving 4 hours for sleeping...????

[bigjimsdiamondmine]

You are of course in a position to criticize the system. But I really don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. Imagine how much worse society would be if there was LESS education! Free decent education is the foundation of any functioning democratic society, IMO. You're right that we need a good look at it though, teachers need to be valued more, and less time doing paper work more time actually allowed to teach.

[DoraGora]

Secondary school teachers mark till late at night.

[morethanpotatoprints]

I am interested in what conditions you would ut on H.ed?
Giving parents money to find their own tutors or set up little schools would more than likely still be regulated by the government the same as state schools.
It would be a simple case of geography.

I don't blame you for being disillusioned with the system though and thoroughly sympathise with your post.

[chilephilly]

YABU.
Scrap state schools? Really? I'm a teacher - if you do that I'll be on benefits. The market will be saturated with unemployed teachers, so tutoring fees will be driven down. How do I pay for my children to be educated?
C minus, see me after class.

[Fabulous46]

Why were you working 18-20 hours per day? Something is going wrong if as a teacher you are working 20 hours per day surely. lesving 4 hours for sleeping...????

Exactly! NO teacher works 18-20 hours a week. My closest friend is a HT and doesn't work anywhere near this. I think you're a disgruntled ex teacher OP. Than fuck you left as no school needs a teacher that can't deal with challenging behaviour. I feel sorry for the kids you taught if this is your outlook.

[Fabulous46]

Sorry that should have read a day

[betweenmarchandmay]

Indeed, quite

A lot of the time, it's just luck.

[Caronaim]

Laurie fairy, my previous school had a budget of several million, and 1200 students, so about £2500 each, so yes, I think £2500 per child per year would be enough for some parents to leave work, or jobshare with another parent.

I'm not really serious, it is just I can't see how it is possible to put the system right.

Of course, just abolishing ofsted would be a step in the right direction. It makes me giggle to think of what would happen if that happened. teachers would be utterly lost and bewildered to start with, no stupid pointless mad instructions dominating and defining your life!!!! they wouldn't know what to do with themselves! It would work out better in the long run though.

[Fabulous46]

Secondary school teachers mark till late at night.

Yes they do, as do all teachers, however, they do NOT work 18-20 hours a DAY!

[AuntieStella]

Universal education existed in Britisn well before the current version model of state schools was rolled out post-war.

And the state has been funding schools since about the early 1800s.

We don't have to keep it the same forever. And indeed with Labour setting up the model of funds directly to the schools (something endorsed and continued by the Tories too), it does look as if we are returning to the nineteenth century model.

I suppose the important bit will be keeping some form of uniformity of standards - something that really wasn't attempted until the 1980s, and not without controversy ever since.

[DoraGora]

It's mainly the head/slt who manage the response to challenging behaviour throughout the school.

[Caronaim]

no heels, leaving TWO hours or sleeping, 1 and a half hours for travel and 30 mins talk to my children.